>infringe on any "magician's secret". > JD >jdolan@titan.iwu.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 09:16:04 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:03:05 -0600 From: David Kiihne To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Magic Illusions - More Banter Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com >>> "John P. Jeffries" 02/27/97 01:47am >>> > This is off-topic a bit but I thought I would chuck it up. > There was a magician that specialized in "up-close" magic I talked to on > many occasion. I never asked "how" his illusions were done, nor would I want > to know, but it baffles me to this day: Pushing things even further off topic: I'd have to agree with you. As a spectator, close-up magic is my absolute favorite kind to watch. When watching big illusions, I can't help but slip into analytical mode because I've studied the principles for so long. I can't seem to suppress the urge to decipher the underlying principles in the illusion or trace the concepts' ancestors through the history of stage magic or figure out how I could make the illusion better (or at least different). When watching high-quality close-up magic (like that of Mike Close, Ricky Jay, or Bill Malone, to name just a few), I can almost return to the mind set of an uninitiated spectator. I know just enough about sleight-of-hand to appreciate how hard it really is, but still little enough to not instantly recognize every sleight that's being used. Lately it seems as though that's the only way I can return to that mind-numbing, jaw-dropping, eye-popping sense of pure astonishment that attracted me to magic in the first place. (OK, so it wasn't the questionable women.) "Sure I can figure out how to cut a lady in half while she's levitating... But HOW did that guy restore the card I signed and tore up?!?!?!" Close-up magic is a little harder to "convert" to Halloween-ish uses. (There! I tied it in to the list; don't yell at me! ) I can't imagine Dracula asking someone to "Pick a card, any card." ...Well, actually I can. But, then, I'm just weird! > My hat goes off to all that have dedicated their time to follow in the path. Agreed! OK, I'll behave now and get back to legitimate H-l topics. Stop scowling at me. :) Dave - daveki@nebfef.com From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 10:24:20 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:35:46 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: catalog? Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com 17066 San Ricardo street PHONE # Fountain Valley CA 92708 (714) 968-7298 Yes, please send me ALL your literature. My collection of reference and catalogs are a great source of cost and availability analyses for me. I am sorry to say the it is hard to find QUALITY and variety in the kind of equipment that would be used in this kind of production. Many make their own equipment. I have several ideas on standard equipment that I wish were off the self from distributors. I feel that too many of the manufactures and distributor don’t use their products and thus don’t really know what their customers need. I can not find a cassette playing device that will play a sound effect when tripped then , stop and reset for the next group of customers. This is a simple idea that I was sure would be easy to find, (don’t exhibits and museums use this?) I know I could sell many of these if they were priced about the same a typical car stereo. Do you have any Leeds on such equipment? I must be able to use TAPED sound effects or use digital recording without loosing the recorded effect when power is not fed to the device. From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 12:12:15 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:06:23 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/haunted house reality Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 09:47 PM 2/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >I don't agree that the old stage magic tricks cant be a good source of >illusions for a HH. I am a magician and have been using such for 20 years. >Every effect in the Disney haunted mansion came from old stage magic acts >including the pepper's ghost and the seance room. There are no bad tricks just bad presentations. >You must create the proper setting for the trick to fit in and work under the >conditions of a haunted house....sorry to disagree, but this is my area expertise... >(using magic tricks for Haunted houses I mean....) > (My apologies to all if this hits the list twice, mail server problems today have made sending mail a bit more exciting than usual.) Denny I don't remember anyone saying illusions couldn't be a good source, only that many weren't suitable because of time, space, money and talent constraints. While everyone loves Disney's Haunted Mansions and view them as great haunted visions in the sky, you've ignored what most haunted houses really are. Please seriously consider the following realities- 1. 90% of the haunted houses put on in this country have yearly budgets less than it costs to build one scene in Disney's Haunted Mansion. 2. Most are walk-thrus, no time for a ten minute version of Girl To Gorilla or a three minute Sawing A Woman. Finding the floor space and buying the materials for a simple Pepper's Ghost is tough enough for these people on a budget. 3. Many are built into vacant storefronts or single level buildings, Disney's Ballroom Scene/Pepper's is great but it just won't fit. 4. Many haunted houses must work with volunteers, not trained, paid, career professionals. 5. Most of these same unfamous haunted houses are put on by non-profit civic groups, raising money for local programs, working hard and having a lot of fun as a community. They are not giant corporations with gross revenues in the billions. 6. ...and let's get real, while the Disney Corporation is enjoying great business success once again, there was a time not long ago, they were choking on their own excesses. (I was going to write- choking on their own puke- but decided to clean it up) Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 12:19:58 1997 From: David Zinkus Subject: Re: catalog? To: halloween-l@netcom.com Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:15:34 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Spookyfx@aol.com claims ... *> *> I can not find *> a cassette playing device that will play a sound effect when tripped *> then , stop and reset for the next group of customers. The older style phone answering machines do this for the playing of the outbound announcement message. Most of the answer machines are digital now, but would offer the same functionality. You should be able to take one apart and trip the message with an external source or simulate "ring" voltage right at the RJ-11 jack on the device. my $.02 dmz From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 12:21:40 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:17:54 -0500 (EST) From: Jennifer Etowski To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: test Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com no response needed test From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 13:23:09 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:17:10 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Halloween and Hoola Hoops Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Just a strange question to throw out there. A few years ago (4 or 5) when I first got on the Internet a search with the available, miserable, search engines brought up at best a dozen replies to "Halloween" and none for "haunted house". Now of course there are 24,000 listed before the computers at Alta Vista decide to go have lunch. New web pages assembled by (self proclaimed?) haunted house masters now spring up daily. And yes, people like me sell supplies from every street corner, displacing pushers, hookers and gang members in many areas, who now out of work, must find seasonal jobs in haunted houses. ;) I realize fully that a good number of people on this list and elsewhere have been involved in the hobby and industry for many years and the marketing of Halloween decorations goes back to the beginning of the century, at least. Here's the question- ('bout time Denny) Is the Halloween and Haunted House Building Boom here to stay or is it a new found fad that will eventually die like the Hoola Hoop? Will it grow and then fall back to a level seen a few years ago? Yes, it's the second largest holiday in the United States, but does it have the big staying power that Christmas has enjoyed for that past 150 years of modern Christmas commercialism? I know none of us can really answer this but am curious to how people feel. Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 14:31:10 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 16:25:05 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: catalog? Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 02:15 PM 2/27/97 -0600, you wrote: >Spookyfx@aol.com claims ... >*> I can not find >*> a cassette playing device that will play a sound effect when tripped >*> then , stop and reset for the next group of customers. >The older style phone answering machines do this for the playing of >the outbound announcement message. Most of the answer machines are >digital now, but would offer the same functionality. You should be >able to take one apart and trip the message with an external source >or simulate "ring" voltage right at the RJ-11 jack on the device. > Good ideas Dave. Tape playback units of various types are those things that older (oops, make that experienced) haunted house people have butchered, hacked and taped together for years... and they work. Cassette tape decks for cars also work well- Auto reverse tape decks for cars can be stopped as the tape stops or reverses. This can be done by electronically sensing reverse, or the increased current when the tape jams to a stop. Or- with latching relays and micro-switches that sense shuttle movement at either end of the tape.. Some units have the choice of an auto-stop at the end of the tape and a manual switch to reverse it. Just bypass the reverse switch with your own. Then again why mess with it all? Digital sound/voice storage chips have been fairly cheap for a couple of years. Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 16:18:13 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:13:49 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: hauntedattr@pelican.net (Oliver Holler) Subject: Re: Halloween and Hoola banter Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Denny wrote/typed/pecked. . . >Just a strange question to throw out there. > Is the Halloween and Haunted House Building Boom here to stay or is it a >new found fad that will eventually die like the Hoola Hoop? I still like my Hoola Hoop. >Yes, it's the second largest holiday in the United States, but does it have the big staying power >that Christmas has enjoyed for that past 150 years of modern Christmas >commercialism? Well, I sure as heck didn't get my Hoola Hoop on Halloween morning. . . In myopium, Halloween will never surpass Christmas, because of the strong religious purpose behind Christmas. (Even if it HAS become smothered with plastic and tensil commercialism.) You've got to admit, it's got a good, meaningful foundation. -One that my own faith supports. Halloween (and we can debate about origins, religious ties, etc.) still pales when compared with Christmas in it's significance and far reaching influence and impact on so many people's lives. The fact that Halloween is#2 is amazing! (I would think from a commercial standpoint, that a holiday like Valentines Day would clean up the market. It is a holiday propelled by love and passions (a broad, powerful influence), accessible to any religion, culture, sexual orientation, and race. Plus, it is almost manditory law that people participate and buy stuff! -especially if you are married, and you know what I mean if you are! ;-) Halloween makes no demands. You can carve a pumpkin. Or not. -And your family or neighbors won't care either way. >Will it grow and then fall back to a level seen a few years ago? Times are already a-changing. Many people who were on the ground floor when H.H.'s really began to crank up, are now selling out! This comes as a surprise to me, but they are! Many are shifting to 'consulting', or 'mass manufacturing', or just plain selling, cause people want to buy more than ever, and will spend the money for a ready-made haunted attraction. Cydney Neil's (2) Rocky Point H.H. events in Utah are for sale, The Haunted Mill in Michigan is for sale, Spirit Theatre in Key West, Beware House in Hawthorne, New York -the list goes on. I think things will level off. Hundreds, if not thousands of people are rushing the market as a 'get rich quick thing.' I've personally met many who don't have the first clue. They just want to cash in. $$$$$ "SHOW ME THE MUMMY!" -er, Money. (sorry, Boris.) They try, some die, and some of those who have relative success simply lose interest, because the passion isn't there. Their passion is often money, and they should have stuck to Mutual Funds. Investing is a much easier and dependable way to ensure your future! -Plus, you stand no chance of getting smashed in the face by an over-zealous teen. >I know none of us can really answer this but am curious to how people feel. >Denny Yeah, it's here to stay. EVEN IF I HAVE TO DO IT SINGLE-HANDEDLY! (But I know I'll have help. -Right?) Most sincerely, if not with brevity, Oliver hauntedattr@pelican.net http://www.pelican.net/hauntedmagazine From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 16:24:11 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:41:14 -0500 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: "John P. Jeffries" Subject: Re: Halloween and Hoola Hoops-banter Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com (snip) > >Here's the question- ('bout time Denny) > Is the Halloween and Haunted House Building Boom here to stay or is it a >new found fad that will eventually die like the Hoola Hoop? Will it grow and >then fall back to a level seen a few years ago? Yes, it's the second >largest holiday in the United States, but does it have the big staying power >that Christmas has enjoyed for that past 150 years of modern Christmas >commercialism? This is *my* opinion. One year some clod that knows nothing (but claims he/she does) will construct a plastic/card-board house, kill several people and all of us will pay by a federal permit even for home porch displays. Depending on the location, many places (like the Jay-Cees) are unable to put one on because of the high cost of materials. And it's tough to get a house and paint the whole inside black and then expect it to sell when they are done. This has been the major reason for the decline in those types of houses that we all loved to go and see. It's a shame, I had my best fright-memories in those. The "Haunted House" industry has also seen a HUGE jump in items and manufactures over the last several years. But many places charge phenomenal rates for a limited movement piece of garbage, that is nothing more than a glorified smoke machine. Then, if something happens, you pay shipping and a killer fee for a repair. 99.9% of people want things that WORK, LOOK GOOD, and LAST, and you don't need to get a loan against the house to buy it. The others just want something for people to look at and can afford whatever they want anyway. Once you take the "fun" out of the season, it's dead...How many people hate to look at their bank balance AFTER Christmas...Yes, there were wonderful memories made, but it takes months to recover. Halloween is about fun, fright, and enjoyment. Make it possible for people to design and build their own items, with friends and family. Once it becomes a season where you say: "Geez, I can't afford to go through that house again..." You know it's doomed. Off my soap-box now... Send personal flames to me. Hauntingly, John P. Jeffries ********************************* * Mr.Scary Productions * * http://www.mrscary.com * * E-mail: mrscary@kiva.net * * 1-812-824-8935 * * FAX: 1-812-824-9960 * ********************************* From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 16:28:57 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:22:41 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: hauntedattr@pelican.net (Oliver Holler) Subject: Re: catalog? Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Denny writes >Then again why mess with it all? Digital sound/voice storage chips have been >fairly cheap for a couple of years. Cause a chip ain't half as interesting to tear into. No guts and stuff., and duct tape and coat hanger wire won't fix a chip. . . ;-) Oliver hauntedattr@pelican.net http://www.pelican.net/hauntedmagazine From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 16:37:47 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:33:11 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: hauntedattr@pelican.net (Oliver Holler) Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/seance room Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com DJ wrote: > . . .never been to Disneyworld or Disneyland. Can somebody please describe it a little for us culturally deprived people? DJ, (and anyone else who wants to) Take my hand, and surf with me. http://www.rhythm.com/~stevez/hauntedMansion.html This isn't an official DISNEY site. But it is comprehensive, built by a true Mansion enthusiast and computer savy guy. Grim and Grinning, Oliver hauntedattr@pelican.net http://www.pelican.net/hauntedmagazine From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 17:19:32 1997 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Jim Kadel Subject: Re: Halloween and Hoola Hoops Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 18:11:13 -0700 Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Denny, At 03:17 PM 2/27/97 -0600, you wrote: >Just a strange question to throw out there. Deserving of a "strange" answer, right? :} > Is the Halloween and Haunted House Building Boom here to stay or is it a >new found fad that will eventually die..snip Well, philosophically speaking, everything in this world dies, and without that we wouldn't have the material (rotten corpses, ghosts, etc) to use for haunting. Indeed haunting itself depends on death. I would think it the height of hypocrisy for the owner of a Haunt to forget the origin of his business. What I notice is that even as the commercialism is growing, the individual (child's) Halloween is apparently shrinking across the nation. As one who, yearly puts on a "one night stand" haunt, I have to be more concerned with this. As a part of our present day "over-reaction" syndrome, schools and communities attempt to replace the "trick or treating" night with a daytime Halloween. The scare they push is the inherent danger to the kids. Religious groups paint an "evil face" on the idea of trick or treating, especially regarding certain costumes. In fact more strict religious beliefs prohibit their kids from ever participating at all. My favorite Web location for debunking this over zealous crowd is: http://www.primenet.com/~ioseph/hallows.htm Anyway then there's the "undead" kids of our day. These enjoy the destruction of property, especially that of those who put personal work into Halloween haunt displays. Today thought, time and expense must be added so that necessary security is provided to protect one's investment. It used to be (as thankfully it still is, in my neighborhood) that the kids would feel that the house which did a "haunt display" would be MORE respected than the others. Just My Plug Nickel, Jim Kadel (jimk@rica.net) From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 17:35:32 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:31:10 -0400 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Jason R Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/seance room Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com >DJ wrote: > > . . .never been to Disneyworld or Disneyland. Can somebody please >describe it a little for us >culturally deprived people? > >DJ, (and anyone else who wants to) >Take my hand, and surf with me. >http://www.rhythm.com/~stevez/hauntedMansion.html > >This isn't an official DISNEY site. But it is comprehensive, built by a >true Mansion enthusiast and computer savy guy. > >Grim and Grinning, >Oliver > >hauntedattr@pelican.net >http://www.pelican.net/hauntedmagazine Damn good site too!. Jay ------------------------------------------------------------- -- Jason Roland -- -- Member FDC {Beach Club lighting tech} -- -- Webmaster of the VRC Homepage. All Disney, all the time. -- -- Http://www.vivanet.com/~thelazer -- -- "I told'em the truth, and they fell for it"-Harry Anderson -- ------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 17:55:42 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:43:19 -0800 From: Spook To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Halloween and Hoola Hoops Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com An excellent question, Denny... I've never really thought much about it, but I figure that the big mobile crankthroughs will destroy most of the small houses. Then the question is whether or not the population can support the hugh prices once a year. I'd like to think not, but I've never been real good at judging how people spend their money. Fortunately, I live in a fairly rural area (the Central Coast of California), where there isn't a large enough population base to support the Big Boys. To be honest, if they came in, I'd just close up rather than try to compete. As far as the Halloween Industry, I believe it will continue to grow. It will go through some growing pains as new and inovative young people move in to cash in, but it will turn into a thriving industry that will probably outstrip even Christmas in adult spending. I don't know... Let me get back to the coffin and sleep on it a bit... It'll be interesting to see what the rest of the folks have to say. Mark From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 17:55:57 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:47:31 -0800 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Greg Hope Subject: Re: Halloween and Hoola Hoops [long ramble] Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 03:17 PM 2/27/97 -0600, Denny wrote: > Is the Halloween and Haunted House Building Boom here to stay or is it a >new found fad that will eventually die like the Hoola Hoop? Will it grow and >then fall back to a level seen a few years ago? Yes, it's the second >largest holiday in the United States, but does it have the big staying power >that Christmas has enjoyed for that past 150 years of modern Christmas >commercialism? You've touched a subject that's near to my heart. We've had previous discussions about haunted houses and what people expect to find in them. Even our self-selected group clearly demonstrates that a haunted house is different things to different people. By its very nature, I think that Halloween is a holiday that can't easily be compared to Christmas, Easter and others. It's a controversial holiday and people often feel compelled to distance themselves from the day, even while taking part in the festivities. No other holiday embraces fantasy and escapism is does Halloween (Santa Claus notwithstanding, we don't assume other identities for Christmas). I believe that fantasy serves a valuable role in life. It certainly has become a commercialized holiday, but the subjects that comprise the Halloween atmosphere don't fully disappear with end of the season (consider the seasonality of Christmas stories versus the timelessness of horror stories; do Christmas attractions receive the year-round attendance that the Haunted Mansion does?). For the sake of good people like Denny, I'm pleased that there seems to be a living to be made from Halloween, even though I decry the commercialism that has permeated Christmas. Somehow, spending big bucks on Halloween doesn't seem as hypocritical to me, since it doesn't come laden with as much philanthropic baggage. Is all the attention and spending well advised in the case of Halloween? I, for one, think so. The subjects that typify Halloween and the haunted house experience, horror, mystery, illusion, fear, are all aspects of life that help us to locate the boundaries of reality, of normalcy. However, like children, we need to test these boundaries to prove their existence, to confirm where we stand in relation to them. Some people do this by perpetrating fear, violence and abuse on others and are the deviants in society. The rest of us watch movies, read books and celebrate Halloween. We know where the edge of reality is by reaching out and touching it. Most people would agree that this is a healthy and, largely innocuous, pursuit. I also realize that there are large numbers of people who take offense at many of the elements of Halloween, find celebration of the holiday a violation of their chosen moral/religious code. I would suggest that such people prefer to have the reality/fantasy line prescribed to them, rather than test it themselves. I can't argue against such a personal choice. For the rest of us, the boundary is a source of fascination and the search brings a new level of awareness, interest and thrill to life. The unspoken question is, "why is life as it is, what might a different reality be like and how might I react to it?" We read the book, watch the movie, enter the haunted house, because there is a promise of seeing an alternative, something different, and we hunger for a peak behind the curtain. Another angle on this might be a fascination with the macabre, the dark, the inhuman. It's easy to look at the tremendous success of violent action movies, real-life news dramas and the latest gruesome facts in the newspaper, and conclude that the real hunger that Halloween satiates is less one of perception and more one of cruelty. I disagree and find this to be an over-simplification. Without descending into a much-fought battle of cause and effect, I think a condemnation of Halloween and haunted houses is one of fanstasy and drama at large. For better or worse, the modern age we live in has brought us closer to a common consciousness than ever before. More people are aware of the existence of others living half a world away, more people are aware of our shared fate on this little planet, more people are aware of the myriad forms of ugliness that color life in all parts of the world. The notion of the mysterious "other people, other cultures" is fast disappearing. The developed world is in the middle of an explosion in science and technology. Interest in the immeasurably small and unthinkably large aspects of our world is at an unprecedented high. Exploration of space seems on the brink of a new golden age. We are living in an environment in which the question is the common coin of life, the information age. In such an environment, brief excursions into fantasy, alternative realities, are expected and, in fact, more so now than ever before. What does all this have to do with Halloween and haunted houses? We now are ready to explore the limits of reality. We're curious about our fears, about why we still face the unknown with some reluctance, but forge ahead anyway. Why do we fear the unknown when it fascinates us so? Is there another level of consciousness, of awareness, that we can reach? What would it be like to do so? Sociologists and psychologists offer us all kinds of dramaturgical models to explain the boundaries between the personal and the public "self" and, aware of this duality in ourselves, we search for multiple layers of reality in the world around us. We welcome rare opportunities to assume alternative identities, to live in virtual realities, to step outside our normal existence. We observe magic and want to believe; any praciticing illusionist will confirm this. We are disappointed when illusions fail, when any story, however fantastic, fails to "ring true". Society decides how to label and deal with those who can't or don't return from the fantasy. We don't yet know how to successfully incorporate an enduring escape, a long-lasting fantasy into life; but, we still crave it in small portions. Like the poorly executed book or movie, I personally believe the Halloween or haunted experience that simply offers disjointed tableaus of gore, cruelty and tastelessness is bound to have a limited effect. I remember leaving the theater after a showing of Terminator, and seeing and hearing the usual chatter, the typical hubbub that follows any action movie. The same result followed many, many movies; Hellraiser, Silence of the Lambs, Aliens, Dracula, etc. On only one occasion was there an exception, and that was at the end of Schindler's List. That particular movie ended and you could hear a pin drop in the theater. The doors opened, 300 people exited and there was barely a whisper. The movie had touched reality. It accomplished this without chainsaws, demons and guillotines. The experience that most closely speaks to reality for the observer is the one that has the most lasting impact. To this end, I believe that the successful haunted experience will be the one that transports the observer into the most believable alternative reality. I'm not suggesting that the Holocaust is a suitable theme for a haunted house. In fact, I believe that it is a topic suited only to the most serious discussion. However, it's worth noting that it was this and not the demons, chainsaws and guillotines that stole the voices away from movie audiences. It serves as a lesson to designers of haunted attractions. For myself, I think that the future of haunted attractions and Halloween rests with the effort that designers and observers of attractions bring to creating the exploring the world behind the curtain. There are likely to always be those who splash buckets of fake blood through tents, but the challenge will be to send visitors home with new questions about the boundaries of reality. I know this has been a long rant and apologize to those who wish I could be less verbose, but I'm really looking forward to reading some more thoughts on this topic. I think it's a big one and I'm sure not the last word on it. Greg in Vista T (619) 945-4424 F (619) 726-2804 E ghope@mailhost.csusm.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 17:58:51 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:54:04 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/haunted house reality Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com OK, I must insist that It is possible to recreate the Disney illusions on a budget. the scale is smaller and the equipment is less reliable but every effect in the haunted mansion I have duplicated in my HH for various fundraising groups. average price of $100 or LESS! I have a Love/Hate relationship with Disney (l live a mile away and have season tickets) I like their presentation style but not there business practices. I have documents dated over 10 years ago proving that I came up with an illusion I called the Icon system. I created a hologram like image on a wall of fine water mist. I used it to produce a image of a 10 foot ghost floating above my HH. I presented the plans to RIDE & SHOW engineering when I tried to get a job with them, I was eventually turned down by the vise president, but some years later the basic effect was used in their FANTASUM show. My point is that THEIR effects ALL come from principles that don’t NEED big money. MY HH by the way is 80% automated using sound on tapes and sound switches to operate electrical equipment. All for less than a DISNEY engineers make in 10 minutes. From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 17:59:13 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:43:19 -0800 From: Spook To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Halloween and Hoola Hoops Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com An excellent question, Denny... I've never really thought much about it, but I figure that the big mobile crankthroughs will destroy most of the small houses. Then the question is whether or not the population can support the hugh prices once a year. I'd like to think not, but I've never been real good at judging how people spend their money. Fortunately, I live in a fairly rural area (the Central Coast of California), where there isn't a large enough population base to support the Big Boys. To be honest, if they came in, I'd just close up rather than try to compete. As far as the Halloween Industry, I believe it will continue to grow. It will go through some growing pains as new and inovative young people move in to cash in, but it will turn into a thriving industry that will probably outstrip even Christmas in adult spending. I don't know... Let me get back to the coffin and sleep on it a bit... It'll be interesting to see what the rest of the folks have to say. Mark From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 18:26:58 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 20:26:21 -0600 (CST) From: John Dolan To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Halloween and Hoola Hoops (long) Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com **Disclaimer-the following is merely a personal opinion and much of this is tongue-in-cheek so please take don't take this too literally (I'm really not this cynical in real life)*** Denny wrote: > Is Halloween and Haunted House Building Boom here to stay or is it a >new found fad that will eventually die like the Hoola Hoop?..... This for me is a two part question one part deals with Halloween,the second deals with Haunted Houses:Part 1 Halloween seemed to fall out of favor awhile back due to an over-react- ionary response from the public caused by two main factions:the media, and ill-informed religious fundamentalists.Back then the media was try- ing to convince us that product-tampering was so rampant you couldn't help but wonder if every third piece of candy was laced with some sort of toxic substance.Also in the '80s some religious fundamentalist groups, for some unknown reason,decided to make Halloween their "cause-celebre".They were on a mission to convince us (the ignorant masses) that this innocent holiday was nothing more than a masquerade for an unconsious worship of evil (you can't imagine the shock I felt when I discovered that when I was dressing up as an astronaut,etc. as a kid for halloween,what I was really doing was paying homage to Satan-the things parents don't tell their children!). Now Halloween is back.Why? Because there is a force in this country much greater than religion (sad but true) called capitalism.Once companies found out that there were enough of us out there unwilling to be held hostage by the beliefs of special interests groups, and eager to buy their halloween murchandise, the stigma was lifted.However I think the "commercialization" of halloween is somewhat of a double-edged sword. While I credit it with helping to save Halloween I think it has also been responsible for robbing some of the creativity halloween use to celebrate.For example, when I was a child (a long time ago) almost all costumes were hand made (back then children could even dress as a little devil without anyone even batting an eye),now days it is all to rare that I don't see a child wearing a commercially cookie-cutter processed, costume.Is Halloween here to stay? I for one hope so.Unlike "fads", Halloween does have a relatively long tradition and I like to think it was only on a temporary hiatus a few years back. JD jdolan@titan.iwu.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 18:31:32 1997 From: htraver@dreamsys.com Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 18:29:50 -0700 Subject: Re: catalog? To: halloween-l@netcom.com Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Easier to use tape loops since most of us already have them. I have some 8 track tape decks and over a hundred 8 track tapes in boxes in my workshop to use. I designed a small 3 relay circuit to control it so anythin can trigger a sound. The big advantage is the sound can be up to 22 minutes :) when the time comes, I will get the schematic ready to email around.... Harry [ Sent From: Dreamscape Systems - dreamsys.com ] [ Location: Van Nuys, CA - (818) 781-7529 ] From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 18:36:56 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:54:50 -0500 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: "John P. Jeffries" Subject: Re: Halloween and Hoola Hoops Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Mark wrote: >Fortunately, I live in a fairly rural area (the Central Coast of >California), where there isn't a large enough population base to support the >Big Boys. I live in a "rural" area as well, people drive hours to visit a good haunt, big or small..I drive 3-6 hours just to look at porch displays...It's my way to relax and take it all in. >To be honest, if they came in, I'd just close up rather than try to compete. Why say compete? I've seen haunts costing well over 100K that really stink. Remember, Showmanship? it's what many crank through places forget about:) It's the "personal" touches that make it worth while. Besides, ANYONE can get a modular place and park it off the side of the road for a month. If it stinks, people will talk. Word of mouth can make or break any business. Just a thought John ********************************* * Mr.Scary Productions * * http://www.mrscary.com * * E-mail: mrscary@kiva.net * * 1-812-824-8935 * * FAX: 1-812-824-9960 * ********************************* From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 18:50:58 1997 From: htraver@dreamsys.com Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 18:43:54 -0700 Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/seance room To: halloween-l@netcom.com Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com DJ, the seance room uses a crystal ball set on a table with a talking lady's head in it. The cars on the ride track form a 180 around it, giving you a clear view all around. Behind the cars are various floating items painted in glowing paint. Sort of cheesy, to tell you the truth, since you can see the strings holding the things. The face was originally priojected from the edge via a tiny mirror. Now they use a mask with LCD/fiber optic technology to give the picture, incidently allowing the table to float slowly, rocking front and back in a floating motion.... Harry [ Sent From: Dreamscape Systems - dreamsys.com ] [ Location: Van Nuys, CA - (818) 781-7529 ] From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 18:55:37 1997 From: htraver@dreamsys.com Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 18:53:56 -0700 Subject: Re: Halloween and Hoola banter To: halloween-l@netcom.com Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com (oliver writer about the commercialization and boom of the Halloween marketplace) I think at least half if not more of the writers on this list are offended by the overcommercialized haunted house crank throughs. 10 years ago, it was mainly Jaycees and local groups. Now, commercial crank through are available to anyone who wants to stage the haunted house scene. I predict a shake-out if it's not started yet, mainly of those who buy crank throughs. Oliver said it of people who went in for the money. I can see some originals getting tired of the whole scene. But for those who have a great lkove of it will stay the distance. I hope to be one to stay the whole distance. Couple of years, then watch out, Los Angeles! :) Harry [ Sent From: Dreamscape Systems - dreamsys.com ] [ Location: Van Nuys, CA - (818) 781-7529 ] From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 19:06:29 1997 From: htraver@dreamsys.com Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:03:58 -0700 Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/haunted house reality To: halloween-l@netcom.com Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Which haunted house do you do out here? [ Sent From: Dreamscape Systems - dreamsys.com ] [ Location: Van Nuys, CA - (818) 781-7529 ] From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 19:06:46 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:59:36 -0600 From: DJ To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/desperate plea Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com E. Wolfgang A. Poe wrote: > > > ...most magic illusions do not fit into the time and space > > requirements of an active haunted house. > > This is true (with the exception of the old, static "carnival > displays). Every year we try to include at least one "carnival sideshow" type thing in our Nightmare benefit for St. Jude's Hospital. Of course the kids love it, but it's the adults who really get interested. (It's also the adults who are most apt to be carrying money, i.e. potential donations to our favorite charity. he he!) In the past we've done such things as The Gorilla Girl (a la blue room), Living Head on a Table (yes, cheap mirror trick), Living Headless Woman (simple black out), The Girl With No Middle (more mirrors), and Spidora (what would we *do* without mirrors?). Our problem is coming up with new ideas for these "sideshow" illusions. We've spent big bucks on magic books, but most of the illusions don't fall in this catagory. Can anybody recommend a book or resource? Or, can anybody suggest an idea or two? Pretty please? I've heard about an old illusion called "The Lady with Four Legs", but I can't seem to find any info on it. Is anybody here familiar with that one? Thanks for any input.... DJ, who's pretty well ruled out the surgical method for creating a four-legged woman From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 19:15:18 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 07:25:35 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/haunted house reality Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 09:47 PM 2/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >I don't agree that the old stage magic tricks cant be a good source of >illusions for a HH. I am a magician and have been using such for 20 years. >Every effect in the Disney haunted mansion came from old stage magic acts >including the pepper's ghost and the seance room. There are no bad tricks just bad presentations. >You must create the proper setting for the trick to fit in and work under the >conditions of a haunted house....sorry to disagree, but this is my area expertise... >(using magic tricks for Haunted houses I mean....) > I don't remember anyone saying illusions couldn't be a good source, only that many weren't suitable because of time, space, money and talent constraints. While everyone loves Disney's Haunted Mansions and view them as great haunted visions in the sky, you've ignored what most haunted houses really are. Please seriously consider the following realities- 1. 90% of the haunted houses put on in this country have yearly budgets less than it costs to build one scene in Disney's Haunted Mansion. 2. Most are walk-thrus, no time for a ten minute version of Girl To Gorilla or a three minute Sawing A Woman. Finding the floor space and buying the materials for a simple Pepper's Ghost is tough enough for these people on a budget. 3. Many are built into vacant storefronts or single level buildings, Disney's Ballroom Scene/Pepper's is great but it just won't fit. 4. Many haunted houses must work with volunteers, not trained, paid, career professionals. 5. Most of these same unfamous haunted houses are put on by non-profit civic groups, raising money for local programs, working hard and having a lot of fun as a community. They are not giant corporations with gross revenues in the billions. 6. ...and let's get real, while the Disney Corporation is enjoying great business success once again, there was a time not long ago, they were choking on their own excesses. (I was going to write- choking on their own puke- but decided to clean it up) Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 19:17:34 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 18:25:35 -0600 (CST) From: John Dolan To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: ?'s-foam and latex,ac/dc Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Does anybody have experience working with foam (as in foam padding)? Specifically what is the best way to shape,cut and glue this material. The stock that I have to work with is a 4" thick mattress pad.The finished product needs to be the shape of a large beach ball.Also can this be covered in latex directly or is there a way to seal the outside first (and then cover in latex). Secondly how does one use low voltage switches to control a a/c unit? JD jdolan@titan.iwu.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 19:27:14 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 19:19:01 -0800 From: Bob Andrews To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Halloween and Hoola Hoops Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com milwiron@btprod.com wrote: > Here's the question- ('bout time Denny) > Is the Halloween and Haunted House Building Boom here to stay or is it a > new found fad that will eventually die like the Hoola Hoop? Will it grow and > then fall back to a level seen a few years ago? Yes, it's the second > largest holiday in the United States, but does it have the big staying power > that Christmas has enjoyed for that past 150 years of modern Christmas > commercialism? > > I know none of us can really answer this but am curious to how people feel. > Denny It will at least last ten years. That's what I've got my cemetery fence and gate amortized for. -- Bob Andrews bandrews@inreach.com http://www.anaserve.com/~BoBandrews From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 20:35:56 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 23:53:10 +0100 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: archival@li.com (kate carr/marc lougee) Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/was bloody knife Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Denny- I can breath finally, now that my long awaited ( tho it really only felt that way) package has arrived, and the family are all standing around staring, hungry, dinner-less, as I indulge whole-heartedly in Halloween-dom! The pleasure is most certainly all mine in theis case, around here, until I can comnvert the folks into being true beleivers in a modular Haunted Dark attraction! this may take some work, and I may call you late in the evening, tears streaming from my eyes and my nose running, looking for some moral support----but that might not happen until September... Lots of other questions, but I need to prep for a trip to NYC in the early AM-- thanks again for all, and I appreciate the tape with the books! Have a good one! talk with you soon! Marc Lougee archival@l.i.com From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 20:39:12 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 23:58:21 +0100 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: archival@li.com (kate carr/marc lougee) Subject: Re: catalog? Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com >Hello!!! > > I love your web site...My names is Ron Stekeur and I am a >salesmen for several companies that produce, custom build, and >manufacture props, full scenes, and faceds for Haunted dark attractions. > >I would like to send you a free mailer if you would like to see it >please e-mail back at: > >enchanted_sales@juno.com and I will be happy to send it to you!!! > >My snail mail address is : Rooute 2 , Box 578-a, Natural Bridge, Va >24578. > >My phone is (540)- 291-2353. Please feel free to call. > >I believe that you truly enjoy a look at our stuff ... > >Thank you for your time and be sure to included the right mailing >address and phone to contact you? OK Have a good day and thank you. > >Ron Stekeur >Account Repersenative Ron- I am currently in the planning phase for this year's dark attraction effort ( my first). I've been involved in film/television special effect for 14 years, and just LOVE to hear about more sources anytime I can find them! I am looking for anything concerning dark attractions at this time, amnd would appreciate any kind of resource info you might have on hand to send... Thanks1 Marc Lougee WOWHOUSE, Inc archival@l.i.com From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 21:19:43 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:13:04 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: ?'s-foam and latex,ac/dc Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com use a relay to control ac with low voltage switches (talk to your local radio shack) open cell foam must be sealed or it will suck up the latex, use a flexable glue like school glue (see my web page for more info: Http://members.aol.com/spookyfx/index.html) dip cloth, ruber strips or paper into the glue and spread it on the foam. once it is dried you can spray on latex. cut foam with a electric knife or a "hot" knife. the Hot knife is not cheap. It is a blade with a transformer to produce the heat. I am working on an idea to use an electric solder gun but do not have a working model yet... Esoteric Toys: noone ever got anywhere by being NORMAL!. From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 21:25:37 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:21:12 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: catalog? Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com I have tried to use answering phone devices thay produce a tone at the end of the playback how do you get rid of the tone? From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 21:28:59 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:24:24 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: catalog? Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com loop tapes are not satisfactory! thay can not be set with a sound such as a monolog without the timeing getting out of wack! From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 22:22:52 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:31:25 -0600 (CST) From: John Dolan To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: RE: Halloween and Hoola Hoops (Part 2) Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Re:Haunted Houses Many moons ago I used to run a haunt that strictly benefitted only charity (UNICEF and March of Dimes).We operated on very mini- mal budget but we also had alot of fun.I had to quit for a variety of reasons (school,military,job,etc.) but the main reason I didn't resume the haunt was that I became disenchanted with what HHs were becoming.This may have been only a local phenomenon, but it seemed that in the early to mid eighties all the haunts were only interest- ed in doing "gore-houses".I'm talking buckets of stage blood every- where and actors shoving animal guts in your face.I don't know if this was caused by the popularity of the "teenage slasher movies" of the time but to me they competely lacked creativity.While I don't really have an objection to gore in a haunt the problem I had at the time was there seemed to be no alternative. In recent years I think that public demand has changed and HHs have evolved.Because of special effects in film and the popularity of multi- media games the average haunt patron is more savy and the demand for more creativity has risen.Patrons want to be transported to another world when they enter a HH (healthy escapism?).Now haunts typically use advanced techniques in lighting,sound,sets,illusions,animatronics, etc,to create this enviroment. So is the HH boom a fad? I personally don't think so,I think they will continue to evolve and get better.The only fear I have is that the rel- iance on hi-tech special effects,and the competitive nature of almost any entertainment industry will create a future where it is too costly for charitable/community houses to survive.I sincerly hope this is an unfounded fear and that the public will continue to support them for this is where HHs began and I'd hate to see them pushed out by the so called "mega-haunts". JD jdolan@titan.iwu.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 22:32:52 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:29:34 -0800 (PST) From: Don Bertino To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/seance room Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Oliver Holler wrote: > DJ wrote: > > . . .never been to Disneyworld or Disneyland. Can somebody please > describe it a little for us > culturally deprived people? > > DJ, (and anyone else who wants to) > Take my hand, and surf with me. > http://www.rhythm.com/~stevez/hauntedMansion.html > > This isn't an official DISNEY site. But it is comprehensive, built by a > true Mansion enthusiast and computer savy guy. Yes! Steve Ziolkowski has put together two great web pages at: http://www.rhythm.com/~stevez/hauntedMansion.html http://www.rhythm.com/~stevez/phantomManor.html BTW, the Disney Haunted Mansion FAQ is available at http://www.calweb.com/~bertino/disney.html bertino@netcom.com ____/^\_____________________________________ Disney ascii art & / \ || FDC MCP || / \ animations are at <______\ [] [] [] || [] [] [] || [] [] [] /______> http://www.calweb.com \----------------||----------||----------------/=== /~bertino===============\______________||__________||______________/===== From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 22:42:14 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 01:36:49 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Halloween and Hoola Hoops (Part 2) Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com a few thoughts on the forces AGAINTS the average low cost HH..... (from my book The complete haunted house Handbook 1994 ) You may be forced to buy liability insurance by the fire marshal. Why they are the ones to enforce this I have no Idea. All I can tell you is sometimes the paperwork to get a fire inspection will ask for your insurance number and carrier. The average cost is about $100 a day for each day you are serving customers. A more practical way to get insurance is to buy a "rider" to the insurance that your club already carries. Sometimes the insurance you presently carry will cover the Haunted House. Most colleges and schools tend to do these "Special events" (as the insurance company calls it) and already have special event insurance. The insurance company will want to know about how many people you will expect to buy tickets, where the event is, how much you will charge, and how many days the event will last. It is a good idea to tell them about all the precautions you have such as fire extinguishers, fire alarms, water sprinkler systems, etc. Be as friendly and cooperative as possible with the local fire marshal who will inspect your Haunted House. They have the authority to waive some of the regulations but they are responsible if a fire breaks out. If they feel that you are doing your best and operating safely you should pass their inspection. But if they want to, they can close you down on the smallest technicality! In my opinion this is very unfair. One house may pass and the same house inspected by a different marshal may be closed down just because he is having a bad day. Most of the time they try hard to work with you. But you have no "practical" recourse if the fire marshal will not okay your project. It's up to their individual interpretation of laws that are made by business politics. Local fire codes are adopted from "recommendations" made by a group called the N.F.P.A. (Nation Fire Prevention Association,) To be in the N.F.P.A. you must PAY fees. The industries that are greatly affected by fire regulations pay a great deal to put their own people in this "association." This way they can influence what the rules will be and they will know what to be prepared for as opposed to their competitors. That makes them NON-ELECTED law makers, and their self-regulating leaves much to be desired. Recently, new fire regulations in some areas will not permit candles to be lit at church congregations. Because the average person does not deal with public functions these laws go unchallenged. Most states have a sales tax on all purchases. There are even amusement taxes in some areas. Most states require an organization to register with its tax office. AND ON AND ON! I respect ANY small business that can survive this kind of trial and tribulation. Esoteric Toys http://members.aol.com/spookyfx/index.html From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Feb 27 23:27:29 1997 From: "Derek Godfrey" To: Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/haunted house reality Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 02:33:30 -0500 Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Spookyfx@aol.com To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/haunted house reality Date: Thursday, February 27, 1997 8:54 PM OK, I must insist that It is possible to recreate the Disney illusions on a budget. the scale is smaller and the equipment is less reliable but every effect in the haunted mansion I have duplicated in my HH for various fundraising groups. average price of $100 or LESS! I have a Love/Hate relationship with Disney (l live a mile away and have season tickets) I like their presentation style but not there business practices. I have documents dated over 10 years ago proving that I came up with an illusion I called the Icon system. I created a hologram like image on a wall of fine water mist. I used it to produce a image of a 10 foot ghost floating above my HH. I presented the plans to RIDE & SHOW engineering when I tried to get a job with them, I was eventually turned down by the vise president, but some years later the basic effect was used in their FANTASUM show. My point is that THEIR effects ALL come from principles that don’t NEED big money. MY HH by the way is 80% automated using sound on tapes and sound switches to operate electrical equipment. All for less than a DISNEY engineers make in 10 minutes. I'd like some more details on this one. Sounds interesting. Derek ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- "There are those that say Life is an illusion, and Reality as we know it is merely a figment of our imagination." mailto:dgodfrey@interserv.com http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2774 ---------- From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 03:18:42 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 05:03:27 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: ?'s-foam and latex,ac/dc Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 06:25 PM 2/27/97 -0600, you wrote: >Does anybody have experience working with foam (as in foam padding)? >Specifically what is the best way to shape,cut and glue this material. Hi JD, Try an electric carving knife for home kitchen use for carving and hot melt or spray contact cement for gluing. I've always had good success with those items. >Also can this be covered in latex directly Yes, just use a thicker grade of latex. Get a paste latex and thin it a bit with distilled water. >Secondly how does one use low voltage switches to control a a/c unit? Radio Shack! The easiest way is a low voltage coil relay with higher voltage contacts. Denny From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 05:13:35 1997 From: Peepley@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:09:22 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/haunted house reality Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Denny - I commend you on your demostrated ability to exercise herculean restraint. jas From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 06:04:44 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:59:49 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/haunted house reality Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 08:09 AM 2/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >Denny - I commend you on your demonstrated ability to exercise Herculean >restraint. Well shoot, I haven't got Herculean anything else! You've been awfully quiet lately Mr. Mayor, how about posting some details about your last haunt to the list? Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 08:25:54 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:01:27 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: catalog? Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 12:21 AM 2/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >I have tried to use answering phone devices >thay produce a tone at the end of the playback >how do you get rid of the tone? > The two answering machines I've had, one digital and one tape, both had a "record" button and a "play greeting" button. The "play greeting" button was for listening to your message after you recorded it to see if was O.K. No beep was heard at the end unless it was answering a call. That button could be bypassed with any kind of normally open switch. The digital machine had a better sound quality than the tape machine but I have heard many digital machines with very poor sound. I still think the modern answer is a digital sound chip and playback board... which is the only part of an answering machine you're using. Build one board to record chips and a bunch of boards for playback. My second choice, if you're not comfortable building boards or can't find the right answering machines is auto-reversible automotive tape decks with latching relays and switches. They work fine but are more work than a sound chip, you also run the risk of tape wear and breakage. Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 08:38:41 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:48:38 -0500 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: "John P. Jeffries" Subject: LONG->Insurance-banter (was Hoola-hoop, pt.2) Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com >At 01:36 AM 2/28/97 -0500, SpookyFX wrote: >a few thoughts on the forces AGAINTS the average low cost HH..... >(from my book The complete haunted house Handbook 1994 ) > >You may be forced to buy liability insurance by the fire marshal. Forced? If a haunt does not have insurance, the operators are asking for trouble. Public access without insurance is insane. >A more practical way to get insurance is to buy a "rider" to the >insurance that your club already carries. Sometimes the insurance you >presently carry will cover the Haunted House. As long as it's not Homeowners insurance. Homeowners insurance for a haunt is like auto insurance for a 30ton truck being driven by a drunk driver..Bad idea. Keep the "Home" on a separate policy than the "Haunt". If the group will not insure the event, I would suggest finding a different group to work with. They *will* have an "event" rider on the policy (parades, shows, etc). Speak with them to make sure the "haunt personnel" will be covered. In a nut-shell, if the group participates, their insurance covers the people, not the building, etc.etc.etc. >Most colleges and schools tend to do these "Special events" (as the insurance company calls it) and already have special event insurance. This will cover the "students" only, not the haunt or haunt property or owner, depending on the policy. But check with them first. >Be as friendly and cooperative as possible with the local fire marshal who will >inspect your Haunted House. They have the authority to waive some of the >regulations but they are responsible if a fire breaks out. Only in an "inter-office" reprimand, the Haunt operator still has full responsibility....Your house, your butt:) >If they feel that you are doing your best and operating safely you should pass >their inspection. But if they want to, they can close you down on the smallest technicality! Yep, Follow the rules and laws covering your area. Contact: State fire marshals office, your local fire department, and your local code enforcement office if you have questions. Each state and or county can have different regulations. That's the point of inspections, we have to live with them..Many good haunts ask for a "pre & post construction" inspection, an "open" inspection, and even a couple during operation. They might catch something you didn't think of. Besides, if all is in order, it will make for an easy trip for them. The more you can protect the people, the better. >In my opinion this is very unfair. One house may pass and the same house >inspected by a different marshal may be closed down just because he is >having a bad day. Just be nice, and do what they wish. If it's something really strange, (like no black lights, only 150w flood lamps) meet with the fire marshals office, request a meeting, they will listen. The point is, carry insurance, if you even have a *porch* haunt, it may be wise to "up" your homeowners insurance for October. Every day people claim to fall on perfectly dry floors in stores. Haunts are no different. If you invite the public, protect yourself with whatever insurance needed. Plain and simple, sad but true, fact-o-life:) Just my two cents :) John ********************************* * Mr.Scary Productions * * http://www.mrscary.com * * E-mail: mrscary@kiva.net * * 1-812-824-8935 * * FAX: 1-812-824-9960 * ********************************* From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 08:58:41 1997 From: SkinkSim@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:39:34 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Trade Show badges Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Has anyone received their badges and i.d. yet? The show's only about 3 weeks away and we're still waiting.... From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 09:56:11 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:47:26 -0400 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Jason R Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/seance room Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com >On Thu, 27 Feb 1997, Oliver Holler wrote: > >> DJ wrote: >> > . . .never been to Disneyworld or Disneyland. Can somebody please >> describe it a little for us >> culturally deprived people? >> >> DJ, (and anyone else who wants to) >> Take my hand, and surf with me. >> http://www.rhythm.com/~stevez/hauntedMansion.html >> >> This isn't an official DISNEY site. But it is comprehensive, built by a >> true Mansion enthusiast and computer savy guy. > >Yes! Steve Ziolkowski has put together two great web pages at: > >http://www.rhythm.com/~stevez/hauntedMansion.html >http://www.rhythm.com/~stevez/phantomManor.html > >BTW, the Disney Haunted Mansion FAQ is available at >http://www.calweb.com/~bertino/disney.html Heck let me throw a plug in here for my site. For behind the scenes info on how the stuff at the Haunted Mansion is done, check out. Http://www.vivanet.com/~thelazer You will find backstage photos, sound files plus and of course how they did the effects. Jay ------------------------------------------------------------- -- Jason Roland- Yes, I support Mac's!. -- -- Member FDC {Beach Club lighting tech} -- -- Webmaster of the VRC Homepage. All Disney, all the time. -- -- Http://www.vivanet.com/~thelazer -- -- "I told'em the truth, and they fell for it"-Harry Anderson -- ------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 11:30:04 1997 From: Peepley@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 14:21:53 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Magic Illusions/haunted house reality Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com you bet. been very hectic. we're gearing up for HAUNTED HOUSE V. I'll be back at ya! jas From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 13:19:42 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:12:39 -0800 From: Bob Andrews To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Herbert Becker Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Have any of the magicians on this list heard of Herbert Becker? He wrote a book called "The secrets of Magic revealed" or some such title. He was on the Maury Provich show this morning. He performed several stage illusions, guilloteen, levitations, woman sawed in half etc. and step by step explained and showed how each trick was done. I thought that kind of secret revealing was akin to breaking one's 12 step anonymity (Oh, damn!). -- Bob Andrews bandrews@inreach.com http://www.anaserve.com/~BoBandrews From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 13:52:59 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:08:12 -0500 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: "John P. Jeffries" Subject: Re: Herbert Becker Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 07:12 AM 2/28/97 -0800, Bob wrote: >Have any of the magicians on this list heard of Herbert Becker? He >wrote a book called "The secrets of Magic revealed" or some such title. >He was on the Maury Provich show this morning. He performed several >stage illusions, guilloteen, levitations, woman sawed in half etc. and >step by step explained and showed how each trick was done. I thought >that kind of secret revealing was akin to breaking one's 12 step >anonymity (Oh, damn!). I've heard of him. His stuff sounds interesting, but to read it (not being a magician) would (to me) be like telling the kids about Santa. I would hate to spoil all the "How in the world is that done" thoughts that keep my fascination and respect with magicians. Although fascinating, it's not on my top 10 books for summer:) John. ********************************* * Mr.Scary Productions * * http://www.mrscary.com * * E-mail: mrscary@kiva.net * * 1-812-824-8935 * * FAX: 1-812-824-9960 * ********************************* From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 13:54:52 1997 From: The Youngs To: "'Bob Andrews'" , "halloween-l@netcom.com" Subject: RE: Halloween and Hoola Hoops Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 16:52:55 -0500 Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Hey Bob I'm coming to foreclose...;-) Jacqui ---------- It will at least last ten years. That's what I've got my cemetery fence and gate amortized for. From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 14:43:09 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 14:36:03 -0800 From: Bob Andrews To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Halloween and Hoola Hoops Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com The Youngs wrote: > > Hey Bob I'm coming to foreclose...;-) > > Jacqui > > ---------- > > It will at least last ten years. That's what I've got my cemetery fence > and gate amortized for. The line forms behind Uncle Sam.... -- Bob Andrews bandrews@inreach.com http://www.anaserve.com/~BoBandrews From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 15:05:23 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:00:48 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Herbert Becker Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 07:12 AM 2/28/97 -0800, you wrote: >Have any of the magicians on this list heard of Herbert Becker? This was the first time I saw him "perform" I can see why magicians hate the guy. It's not because he divulges secrets but because he has absolutely no performance skills. Showing secrets was the only way he was ever going to make money in magic. I have also read of many complaints about his small mail order magic business. They ream this guy out constantly on the alt.magic newsgroup. Denny From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 16:03:14 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 18:58:24 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: hauntedattr@pelican.net (Oliver Holler) Subject: Re:Foam pudding, m-m-m-m Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com JD, and anyone else interested in foam-work, Re:>Does anybody have experience working with foam (as in foam padding)? The tool I have used in (prop construction) for cutting foam rubber is. . .(get ready). . . An Electric Carving Knife! It makes beautiful, effortless, smooth cuts. It is very handy to 'sculpt' foam with. I find 3-M spray adhesive or a rubber cement is ideal for glueing it to itself. Re:>Also can this be covered in latex directly or is there a way to seal the outside first (and then cover in latex). To coat/cover/paint, I would suggest first spraying the surface with the spray version of "DIP-IT", the rubber coating stuff that you can dip tool handles into. (Like pliers, that gives them that neat rubber-skin. It's thick enough so that the foam won't soak it up as much as a more watery substance. It's also a rubber product (like the adhesives suggested above), so it BECOMES part of the foam, and flexes. Re: >Secondly how does one use low voltage switches to control a a/c unit? I ain't touching that one. ;-) By the way, whachadoin with th' latex beach ball thing? Personal pleasure, or Halloween decor? :-) Grim and Grinning, Oliver hauntedattr@pelican.net http://www.pelican.net/hauntedmagazine From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 16:07:42 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 16:07:38 +0100 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: makeup@earthlink.net (Tad Peters) Subject: Re: Re:Welcome/bloody knife Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com >At 04:47 PM 2/25/97 -0500, you wrote: > >>> That was The Amazing Johnathan and The Butcher Knife Illusion. I've seen >>> two versions available on the market, one U.S. made the other I believe >>> French. Neither is cheap ($80.00 to $95.00 depending of the version) but >>are >>> decently made and readily available. >>> Denny I have one that is for kids, it is a plastic knife like jason's or chuckie's or mike's knife, and has a small (2oz.) bulb for dispensing appropiately colored vein goo whilst sawing the little brothers arm off. Includes knife, blood and little brother (if willing to pay feight), otherwise just $4.98. tad. Tad Peters A. Harlequin Costume makeup@earthlink.net 9589 Foothill Blvd tpeters@webbwerks.com Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91730 www.costumemagic.com <=- Web Page (909) 948-2950 From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 16:30:59 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 19:23:28 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: hauntedattr@pelican.net (Oliver Holler) Subject: Re: Herbert Becker Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com >At 07:12 AM 2/28/97 -0800, you wrote: >>Have any of the magicians on this list heard of Herbert Becker? OY VEY! I like the comparison of him and telling kids about Santa! And I'm glad I'm not the only sad person to be watching Maury Povich this morning. But I do have a life! -Really! (like sitting at this computer answering 50 e-mails! Have mercy!) I saw this Herbert guy and about shot straight out of bed! What a timely appearance considering the recent banter. Maury even chuckled, "You'll have alot of magicians really mad at you for revealing that!" after he disclosed the linking rings trick. Maury's just as guilty. He's making money offa Herbert making money offa ruining secrets. Well not 'secrets' any more. And Denny is right about his pitifull performance. While doing the lady cut in half, he mumbled out that maybe we should 'Cut' to commercial, in a miserable attempt at cleverness. It made me want to 'magically' produce last nights supper. I've seen frightened cub scouts do better 'shtick' He's not worth any more banter. Just wanted to know how many others saw it too. -Is he the one David Copperfield tried to take to court to stop his book? If so, I can see why. It's too bad Herb is getting such publicity. Grim and Groaning, Oliver hauntedattr@pelican.net http://www.pelican.net/hauntedmagazine From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 16:39:06 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 19:27:47 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: hauntedattr@pelican.net (Oliver Holler) Subject: Re: Trade Show badges Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com SkinkSim@aol.com wrote: >Has anyone received their badges and i.d. yet? The show's only about 3 weeks >away and we're still waiting.... Nope. Me neither. And I was thinking it was personal. Grim and Grinning, -and waiting. Oliver ps: My plane ticket is paid for. I'm going, and storming the fortress, if necessary! ARE YOU WITH MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE? hauntedattr@pelican.net http://www.pelican.net/hauntedmagazine From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 18:00:01 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 19:59:04 -0600 (CST) From: John Dolan To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re:Foam pudding, m-m-m-m Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Oliver Holler wrote: > > By the way, whachadoin with th' latex beach ball thing? Personal > pleasure, or Halloween decor? :-)> If you've ever seen the opening sequence to "Raiders of the Lost Ark" you can sort of get the idea.We are using alot of safety precautions but on the extremely unlikey chance that are "rolling boulder" should get loose I want to make sure that it is made out of nothing but foam and rubber ;). Btw- Dip-It is a great product.We used it to cover the sharp edges of the "wrought iron fence" we made out of welded rebar.I didn't realize they now have a "spray" version now.I'll have to check it out. Thanks again, JD jdolan@titan.iwu.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Feb 28 18:56:43 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:50:46 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: catalog? Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com jay you pay the law fees and we will split the settlement.... seriously I did not SAY I had a patent...I have documents that are NOTARIZED! If you are calling me a LIAR, call the city of LA VERN, ask for anyone who was connected to the 1989 parks and recreation HAUNTED HOUSE. Ask them all about the "floating skull" that was used outside to draw in customers. If you WERE calling me a LIAR I will expect an apology unless you think the CITY government is in on my "hoax". City of LA VERN human services Wayne W. Michalak was the supervisor at the time. Phone 909 596-8700 (you may need to check that area code, it was a long time ago and we have had some area code changes here in southern California.) From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Mar 1 03:00:20 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 04:55:22 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re:catalog/suing fog Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 09:50 PM 2/28/97 -0500, you wrote in part: > >jay >you pay the law fees and we will split the settlement.... >seriously I did not SAY I had a patent...I have documents that are NOTARIZED! >If you are calling me a LIAR, call the city of LA VERN, ask for anyone who >wasconnected to the 1989 parks and recreation HAUNTED HOUSE. > >Ask them all about the "floating skull" that was used outside to draw in >customers. I don't know who's suing who (or is that whom) here but projecting an image onto fog, mist or smoke has been around and well documented for at least two hundred years, longer if stories of Indian Fakirs are true. Also, just a tip. Notarized documents attempting to protect a concept for later patent work are hardly worth the dollar you paid for the stamp. Contact a reputable patent attorney. Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares 630-830-9561 7:30 am. to 5:30 pm. CST fax 630-830-9577 24 hours From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Mar 1 12:34:35 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 15:29:11 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: catalog/suing fog Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com yes, MANY BASIC concepts have been around for years...THAT’S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY!!!!!! APPLICATION and actual EXECUTION is a different story. My design and the exact method has NOT been around for HUNDREDS of years. That’s why no one else has done it for a haunted house. (at lest no one I have SEEN.) Jay said he had tried and FAILED. because he dose not know the proper method to achieve the basic effect. Many patents are award for IMPROVEMENTS on existing Ideas, not just NEW ideas of which its very hard to come up with a COMPLETELY original (and independent of all other concepts). (MAN, this list is a hot bed! What did I get myself into????? :> ) p.s. the original inventor of the argon lazer won a patent law suit based entirely on notarized documents but then that was a jury trial anyway.... From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Mar 1 14:48:24 1997 From: htraver@dreamsys.com Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 14:46:24 -0700 Subject: Re: catalog/suing fog To: halloween-l@netcom.com Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Patent law is loads of laughs all it's own. It costs some thousands to get a patent, yet certain countries do not recognize US patent law. Britain, for example. Denny got a letter from me showing an invention of mine in the amusement field which got built by another manufacturer entirely (and it will rear it's head in 2 weeks to those in Los Angeles), but that's neither here nor there. If you have a seriously important idea, patent and protect it. Get a patent attorney on your side, and be prepared to sue the pants off Disney or anyone who uses your idea, lest it revert to public domain.... Harry [ Sent From: Dreamscape Systems - dreamsys.com ] [ Location: Van Nuys, CA - (818) 781-7529 ] From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Mar 1 17:15:19 1997 Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 20:34:07 -0500 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: "John P. Jeffries" Subject: Re: catalog/suing fog Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 02:46 PM 3/1/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Patent law is loads of laughs all it's own. It costs some thousands to >get a patent, yet certain countries do not recognize US patent law. >Britain, for example. Denny got a letter from me showing an invention of >mine in the amusement field which got built by another manufacturer >entirely. But they cannot "export" it back to the United States can they? I know of another US maker of special effect make-up supplies sued someone that took the line overseas and manufactured them..It's actually a big line of stuff, I wonder what ever happened? John. ********************************* * Mr.Scary Productions * * http://www.mrscary.com * * E-mail: mrscary@kiva.net * * 1-812-824-8935 * * FAX: 1-812-824-9960 * ********************************* From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Mar 1 17:39:36 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 19:35:21 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: catalog/suing fog-long Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 03:29 PM 3/1/97 -0500, you wrote: >yes, MANY BASIC concepts have been around for years...THAT'S WHAT I WAS >TRYING TO SAY!!!!!! I didn't see the exchange of information you're talking about, only the one sent to the list mentioning a law suit of sorts and a brief mention of the effect. I was replying to only what I saw in that one post. I have no idea what you and Jay talked about off the list and wouldn't attempt to debate it. If you think you have an invention that is original and possibly patentable, the very public Halloween-L mailing list is the wrong place to prove that originality or find protection for it. >APPLICATION and actual EXECUTION is a different story. Zoomed right over my head, you'll need to explain the use of the terms as they apply. Unless you mean patent APPLICATION? Patent applications for mechanical devices are often different from the final product execution and you're right. If the final product is going to be protected by those patents though it's gotta be darn close. I don't know if that is true for medicines or chemical formulas. >My design and the >exact method has NOT been around for HUNDREDS of years. I have no doubt, available materials and technologies change daily and I certainly do not know your method nor care to for proprietary reasons. Maybe you use a video projector and water mist and 200 years ago a French magician used smoke, oil lamps and silhouette shadow puppets. Neither method is considered original today and that magician would have used a video or slide projector if he had one available. I don't think they had 1,200 psi water pumps, Mee Fog nozzles and 5 micron water filters back then either. Just an aside... Didn't Disney project images on water mist many years ago in their evening water show at Epcot? >That's why no one else >has done it for a haunted house. (at lest no one I have SEEN.) I think you'll be surprised. Start with the Halloween-L archives. Why would venue be important to a patent on your invention? >Jay said he had tried and FAILED. because he dose not know the proper method to >achieve the basic effect. I don't know where in development Jay FAILED but... Jay knows his theatrical lighting and effects, I have little doubt he could figure it out. No, not your exact method but his own very workable system. >Many patents are award for IMPROVEMENTS on >existing Ideas, >not just NEW ideas of which its very hard to come up with a >COMPLETELY original (and independent of all other concepts). Absolutely, the devil is often in the details. So far you haven't mentioned any unusual uses, proprietary improvements or ideas. All we can do is scratch our heads until you have your patent number in hand and can give us the low down. >(MAN, this list is a hot bed! What did I get myself into????? YEE haaa, Welcome to the list! :) >p.s. the original inventor of the argon lazer won a patent law suit based >entirely on notarized documents >but then that was a jury trial anyway.... There will always be exceptions to the rules. So far, your banking on being the exception, not a sound idea. What exactly were in his documents? What was seen as value to the court, the stamp or the contents? The Notary stamp shows he signed the papers in front of the Notary... probably. I have a couple dozen patents with my name on them as inventor or co-inventor, most owned by the companies I've contracted to. Patents are awarded for stuff you never expect. One item, sold to Fisher Price called Magic Track Train was awarded patents on my use of a reversible, double pawl ratchet system and some other noodly little details. The big, exciting stuff (the darn concept) I thought was protectable was thrown out. A good patent attorney will "shotgun" the little details on the application in the hopes there's enough there to stick. That shotgunning leaves a lot of doors open for contested patents, new patents and applications later on. If you feel you have a patentable concept, and I hope you do, I would advise contacting an attorney and not discuss it in a public forum. Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Mar 1 17:51:14 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 19:46:48 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: catalog/suing fog Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 02:46 PM 3/1/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Patent law is loads of laughs all it's own. It costs some thousands to >get a patent, yet certain countries do not recognize US patent law. >Britain, for example. Denny got a letter from me showing an invention of >mine in the amusement field which got built by another manufacturer >entirely... I sold your drawings to an investment group from China. ;) Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Mar 1 17:58:28 1997 From: htraver@dreamsys.com Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 17:57:14 -0700 Subject: Re: catalog/suing fog To: halloween-l@netcom.com Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com I never had a patent on my invention. it's a full comedy of errors all it's own. If I had taken the time to patent, it would have been major. As is, it endedup as a rejected idea that another company erected out here as a coincidence. I won't hit into more details as even though its a rather earth shattering invention, I had gone to a manufacturer who rejected it due to maintainence, and anopther company who doesn't give too much about maintainence ended up building it. The first company's prediction in the letter they sent back to me was fully justified, as this unit has been a major source of embarrassment for the place that erected it, opening more than a year late. Email me for more details. Harry [ Sent From: Dreamscape Systems - dreamsys.com ] [ Location: Van Nuys, CA - (818) 781-7529 ] From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Mar 1 19:22:28 1997 From: htraver@dreamsys.com Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 19:15:34 -0700 Subject: Re: catalog/suing fog To: halloween-l@netcom.com Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Too late Denny, Switzerland built a 426 foot tall version of my idea out here in Los Angeles (grin) [ Sent From: Dreamscape Systems - dreamsys.com ] [ Location: Van Nuys, CA - (818) 781-7529 ] From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sun Mar 2 10:54:29 1997 Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 03:51:28 -0800 From: Michael Marcrum To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Herbert Becker Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Hello Ghouls, My 2cents worth....After being on this list for almost a year, and reading several of the articles I have found on the list I have this opion. I don't want to know how it is done, and I don't think this guy is a true lover of magic if he is telling everyone. I find now when I watch shows on TV and they do I trick I have read about it does not seem as fun!! So that is my two cents worth, I love fantasy...I don't want it ruined by reality!! Kathy The new kid on the crypt mmarcrum@ix.netcom.com From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sun Mar 2 12:05:54 1997 Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 11:58:29 -0800 From: Brer Bear To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: ftp Site Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Hello, my name is Wil, and......I....too.....am a Halloweenholic. And I need your help.........planning for next year! This is my first post and I will introduce myself and say hi to everyone. I look forward to passing on many great and exciting tips. (March isn't too early to start planning is it? :~} ) I found the following letter on the net that is from over a year ago and tried to find the ftp site, with no luck. I would truly enjoy finding pics of any kind of cool houses set up for Halloween. The video tape of the coolest homes and the tips to set the decorations up is of great interest to me and am looking for the the whereabouts of purchasing this. Also, if anyone has an actual schematic or diagram or photo of the now famous "Axworthy Automatic Outdoor Ghost Flying System and Bicycle Wheel Recycler", I would mucho appreciate it. I find it difficult to fully understand how the corner is set up so as the Ghost doesn't get torn off by the string that is going the opposite direction around the same wheel. (I'm referring to the corner of the "L" pattern that the Ghost flies through) Pardon my lack of vision, I need special coaching I guess. I was able to stay out of the "special ed class" all the way though school, but in retrospect, maybe that wasn't actually a GOOD thing.... >Hi Bill! >I did really try to get to them before this, but this came up or that... :( >Sorry! >I have posted them in my other ftp site ftp.calweb.com /users/i/iaea/image. >Go ahead and make the announcment to the halloween-l since you did such a >good job putting these together. >Sorry it took so long! see don was busy too! :> >bat-1.jpg 55k tombstone with carved bat. >ghost.jpg 35k shadow ghost on house >gyard-1.jpg 22k overall picture of graveyard >gyard-2.jpg 63k overall picture of graveyard >gyard1da.jpg 89k overall picture of graveyard during the daytime >skull-1.jpg 46k tombstone with carved skull From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sun Mar 2 13:33:02 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 15:22:16 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: ftp Site/flying ghost Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 11:58 AM 3/4/97 -0800, you wrote in part: >Hello, my name is Wil, and......I....too.....am a Halloweenholic. And I >need your help.........planning for next year! > > This is my first post and I will introduce myself and say hi to >everyone. Hi Wil, Welcome to the list, glad to see you found your way here. > Also, if anyone has an actual schematic or diagram or photo of the >now famous "Axworthy Automatic Outdoor Ghost Flying System and Bicycle >Wheel Recycler", I would mucho appreciate it. I find it difficult to >fully understand how the corner is set up so as the Ghost doesn't get >torn off by the string that is going the opposite direction around the >same wheel. (I'm referring to the corner of the "L" pattern that the >Ghost flies through) Pardon my lack of vision, I need special coaching I >guess. It can be confusing! I believe Scott Axworthy's original setup flies through a complete circle so no return "L" was needed. (Scotty?) My setup couldn't fly the ghost in a huge circle so I needed an "out and back" corner or an "L". What I did was use two bicycle wheels one large at around 34" dia. and one small at 24" dia. The larger of the two is mounted above the smaller and allows the ghost to pass without interference... unless the wind is out of the East (in my case), then I shut it all down so the ghost can't be blown into the bottom wheel. Because of the "out and back" I also need a different ghost hanger than Scott used. I use a couple of small loops of string on the main line and then hang the ghost from two pieces of thin wire from the loops. The actual setup of these loops and wires takes some playing around with. The best thing you can do is start with a temporary setup with two wheels between a couple of trees and experiment running it by hand with different weights (I used a hammer) to get the feel what is going to be required as your system grows. That temporary setup will teach you more than anyone can write. Do also check the archives for the trials and tribulations many of us have gone through with our ghosts. My first year with the ghost was a piece of cake, the second year was hell on earth. Thanks in part to one of our dogs my ghost is now 50% super glue. One other thing... Keep your ghost as light as possible! >I need special coaching I guess. I was able to stay out of the "special ed >class" all the way though school, but in retrospect, maybe that wasn't actually >a GOOD thing.... Not at all, hang in there, Scott's flying ghost is well worth all the work. Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sun Mar 2 13:52:19 1997 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 13:51:38 -0800 From: Scott Axworthy To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: ftp Site Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Wil: Brer Bear wrote: > > Hello, my name is Wil, and......I....too.....am a Halloweenholic. And I > need your help.........planning for next year! > Congratulations Wil, you've taken the first step towards recovery, you've admitted your addiction. I'm sorry to inform you that there is no cure. You have now found a den of addicted souls, tormented like you, feeding off the addiction of others. It only gets worse from here... Other than that, its really a fun place! > This is my first post and I will introduce myself and say hi to > everyone. I look forward to passing on many great and exciting tips. > (March isn't too early to start planning is it? :~} ) Your a little late actually, but we'll excuse you this time, being new and all. > I found the following letter on the net that is from over a year ago > and tried to find the ftp site, with no luck. I would truly enjoy > finding pics of any kind of cool houses set up for Halloween. The video > tape of the coolest homes and the tips to set the decorations up is of > great interest to me and am looking for the the whereabouts of > purchasing this. I believe all of those pix are live on Don Bertino's web site: Try the following: http://www.calweb.com/~bertino Look in the Halloween section. > Also, if anyone has an actual schematic or diagram or photo of the > now famous "Axworthy Automatic Outdoor Ghost Flying System and Bicycle > Wheel Recycler", I would mucho appreciate it. I find it difficult to > fully understand how the corner is set up so as the Ghost doesn't get > torn off by the string that is going the opposite direction around the > same wheel. (I'm referring to the corner of the "L" pattern that the > Ghost flies through) Pardon my lack of vision, I need special coaching I > guess. I was able to stay out of the "special ed class" all the way > though school, but in retrospect, maybe that wasn't actually a GOOD > thing.... > I don't know about famous, but it is a neat effect. I think the only picture on the net is on Bob Andrew's web page. My new Netscape version just toasted my previously organized bookmarks and I don't recall the URL for his site. (Bob, are you listening?) Bob's picture shows his drive wheel which may be the piece that you are having a problem with. A picture is worth a thousand words for this project, but I haven't had a chance to get any out there yet. Let me take a stab at answering your question though. Think simple first. If you are a skier, the system is very like a ski lift. The ghost travels on the "outside" of the loop. The string and the ghost all travel in the same direction. The drive wheel is the only special wheel in the system since it is obviously motorized. Bob used Denny's method, which was to add a secondary rim to the main ghost rim. This isn't actually necessary, although it may be convenient depending on your drive mechanism. It does add some complexity however. So, in the case of my drive wheel, the motor is on the inside of the loop. My drive belt is the same type of string that runs around my whole system. (Denny, you should really carry this string, it is the best thing since sliced body parts. I'll try to find a source for you, I think the Haunt community would go nuts for this stuff.) So the drive string just rides next to the main string in the same groove. It sounds confusing but in practice it works quite well. The ghost connection can be either a direct (string to string type) or the more complicated ski-lift style (metal standoff style.) I have probably raised more questions than I answered, don't hesitate to call me if you would like a better explanation. Its not as bad as it sounds. Unfortunately work has invaded all my waking hours lately. I am having severe pangs of Halloween-envy for all of you going to the convention. Stu, Denny, & Nathan, be sure to drink one for me. Come to think of it, where has the Evil Doctor Stu been lately. He must be stuck in the horrible day job syndrome as well. If you have more ghost system questions, let me know. Bear with me and I will respond as soon as I can. -Scott --------- Scott Axworthy Phone: 206-649-7668 Cascade Design Automation Fax: 206-649-7600 scott@cdac.com http://www.cdac.com From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sun Mar 2 14:05:27 1997 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 14:04:33 -0800 From: Scott Axworthy To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: ftp Site/flying ghost Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Wil, Denny and all: milwiron@btprod.com wrote: > ...deleted... > > It can be confusing! I believe Scott Axworthy's original setup flies > through a complete circle so no return "L" was needed. (Scotty?) Correct, mine was a very large loop that went all the way around my house. I have had from 5 to 6 turns in my setup over the years. > My setup couldn't fly the ghost in a huge circle so I needed an "out and > back" corner or an "L". What I did was use two bicycle wheels one large at > around 34" dia. and one small at 24" dia. The larger of the two is mounted > above the smaller and allows the ghost to pass without interference... > unless the wind is out of the East (in my case), then I shut it all down so > the ghost can't be blown into the bottom wheel. Because of the "out and My wheels range from small composite/bearing wheels at about 4" ( for minor course corrections) to the large wheels that Denny mentions for normal turns. The tighter the turn, the large the wheel that you want. The ghost moves at a pretty good clip and will whip around hard on tight turns. And like Deny mentioned, wind is not the ghost's friend! > back" I also need a different ghost hanger than Scott used. I use a couple > of small loops of string on the main line and then hang the ghost from two > pieces of thin wire from the loops. The actual setup of these loops and > wires takes some playing around with. I have used both methods. I developed the ski-lift style as I was trying to utilize heavier ghosts. While the hanger has not caused me too many problems, it adds complexity. Just keep the ghosty light and forget the hangers. > The best thing you can do is start with a temporary setup with two wheels > between a couple of trees and experiment running it by hand with different > weights (I used a hammer) to get the feel what is going to be required as > your system grows. That temporary setup will teach you more than anyone can > write. The best advice so far! > Do also check the archives for the trials and tribulations many of us have > gone through with our ghosts. My first year with the ghost was a piece of > cake, the second year was hell on earth. Thanks in part to one of our dogs > my ghost is now 50% super glue. Hoover the ghostbuster! > > One other thing... > Keep your ghost as light as possible! > What he said. -Scott ----- Scott Axworthy Phone: 206-649-7668 Cascade Design Automation Fax: 206-649-7600 scott@cdac.com http://www.cdac.com From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sun Mar 2 14:37:59 1997 Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 14:34:15 -0800 From: Bob Andrews To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: ftp Site Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Scott Axworthy wrote: