go through ;) JD jdolan@titan.iwu.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Wed Mar 26 19:48:19 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:44:57 -0800 From: Brer Bear To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Hey, HH Questions here. Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Spookyfx@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 97-03-26 10:01:33 EST, you write: > > << How do you guys go about finding a place to have it, I would like loan > from the bank. > What about insurance. Codes and Regulations.. > Please Help, I really wanna get this project off the ground.. >> > ------------------------------------- > > You really need to work as a volunteer at a local HH for a while. > The questions you asked show you need a little more seasoning. > I am not talking down to you, its just that I learned the hard way and > It can be an expensive way to learn. I had an agreement with a property This is one of MANY pitfalls that awaits the "bucking" entrepreneur > in business. I wish I had not been so eager and had stuck to doing > what I knew best (the effects, not the business) > until I had learned more before jumping in with both feet. jerry p.s. > If you can get a bank to loan the money to you, you will be the first > I know of to succeeded at getting such for a small HH. > If you do, I will be happy to help you with some of the > other questions you had. BUT, I really urge you to > use your enthusiasm to learn more about business > in school and from books. > I started doing the HH thing for charity fund raising at about your age, > and I REALLY wish I had done this back then! I hope I'm not butting in here, but I feel I should. I have been highly motivated to be in business for myself since I started "Go Fast Motorcylce Products" when I was a teenager. In my first three businesses I lost money. In my fourth business in the early '80s I lost so many thousands of dollars that the debt has haunted me till this day, even though I now have a successful furniture manufacturing operation and retail furniture store with three full time employees, and have for 8 years. The biggest mistake you can make is walking in blind into business. Jerry took the time to offer you information that you didn't want to hear, not because he wants you to get discouraged and give up. And not because he wants to trick you into not enjoying success. He did this out of concern. I'll bet concern he wishes someone had shown him when he was very young. You have a lot of years to learn and perfect the craft of HH. But more importantly you have a lot of years you could spend learning about business that you won't regret spending. Two years of business classes and offering your services to local charity HH, and you would be ready to actually step out in relative knowlege and confidence into your own haunt that may even turn a profit without putting you into a lawsuit that leaves you paying for a simple oversight untill you're 60 years old. There are a lot of people out there that can scare you to death, but there are only 5 people out of 100 that can pull off running their own business successfully. And this is NOT about blowing my own horn. I was forced to remain in the self-employed sector after having saddled myself with an otherwise un-repayable debt by working for regular wages. And the road I had to take was much more difficult than I would like to admit, to get to where I am (and that's not rich). However, if I had spent time in school learning about cash flow and balance sheets and one-write bookeeping, I may have been able to be self-employed with success many years earlier with fifteen ulcers less. I think you could ask Jerry if these things would hold true for him as well and he'd agree. The important thing here is the fact that you're alrady wanting to do your own haunt. At 16. That shows a lot of motivation and drive. With that, it's a pretty sure bet that you will be your own boss some day. So with that in mind, relax. Spend time in business classes and honing your craft. When you fully understand that if everything goes right, and you work harder than any three men you know, you'll just make ends meet for the first 5 to 8 years in business, and you still want to take the plunge, you'll be ready. I say do it and don't look back. But I also say don't sabotage your own success by walking through a garden of steel rakes in the dark by doing it before you know the business end. You'll wind up knocking yourself out. First go to school and get a light. Wil -- X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X Rest in Peace. The Death Lord http://www.silcom.com/~crafters/playgate.htm X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Wed Mar 26 20:03:54 1997 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:02:31 -0600 (CST) From: John Dolan To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Pumpkin Preservation (real thing) Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com While I was at the show I was able to talk to some reps from Pumpkin Masters and was able to find out some info on the infamous "pumpkin preservation machine". There was a vendor there last year selling one but he ran into problems. However they were able to offer some tips. The way that Pumpkin Masters preserves their displays is by freeze- drying. They pay florists that have freeze dry units (for making dry flower arrangements). It takes about 2 weeks to freeze dry a pumpkin and the average cost is between $25-50.00. The only disadvantage is the pumpkins will be very fragile and loose some of their color (Pump- kin Masters actually paints the preserved pumpkins to make them look more natural). Incidently they neither had nor mentioned a pumpkin preservative that was mentioned by someone on the list in Oct.,so if they used to carry one I think it must have had some poor results. JD jdolan@titan.iwu.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Wed Mar 26 20:08:45 1997 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:07:07 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: hauntedattr@pelican.net (Oliver Holler) Subject: Re: Organization Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Mark wrote: > I guess that means we need to start acting like professionals >and ORGANIZE. (I can't believe I said that). This forum (Halloween-L) >is a good place to start the seed of communication and ideas. . . Well, I may have some unique observations since I was able to attend the expensive all day seminars. (I just got home, and haven't organized my materials yet.) I plan on preparing an overview for the magazine, for folks who couldn't come, so don't feel left out. But on to the main topic- During the opening address, Leonard Pickel announced his resignation from the 'Hauntrepreneurs', as active president in order to spend a year helping develop the haunted association. This is it. While Leonard can be fodder for miscellaneous banter, his stand on Safety is unsurpassed, and I think he is sincere about just stopping everything, and DOING it. Joe Jensen with Haunted America (the internet thing) is open to assisting the effort in whatever way he can, and I think HA magazine can contribute through the printed word. The wheels have begun to turn. (A favorite interest of mine is in helping develop OUR convention.) Not a trade show. A convention. A place to convene. Sure, we can trade! And share, play, tour haunts, have 'lectures', auctions, etc. (Secret handshakes, make smores. . .) Wouldn't that solve alot of Transworld pumpkin problems! IMHO, I am excited. If anyone feels threatened, or whatever-please don't kill the messenger! I come in pieces. :) As I hear more, I'll pass it along. A web site will probably be one of the first things to develop, to allow for suggestions from all of us. Grim and Grinning, Oliver ps: more later, but the Black Hole did rule! hauntedattr@pelican.net http://www.pelican.net/hauntedmagazine From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Wed Mar 26 20:11:31 1997 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:36:59 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Ysengrin Werewolf Subject: Black Hole (was Trade Show Report) Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com >Why does this sound more and more like someone went on the tram/tour ride at >Universal Studios & was inspired by the 'avalanche tunnel' the bus drives >through? (Big rotating tube, makes you feel like the walls are stationary, >and *you* are rotating on your axis?) The Ripley's Believe It or Not franchises also have this effect - except they put a mirror at both ends to make it look longer. Ysengrin Werewolf (aka Silvermane) Member Verdun Manor pack http://www.webcom.com/verdun/verdun.html From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Wed Mar 26 20:12:11 1997 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:37:00 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Ysengrin Werewolf Subject: Re: Back from the Trade Show Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com (Foof - the original post never got here . . . ) >On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Spook wrote: >> First... Got to meet some of the Halloween-L folks! Stayed up till one in the morning on >> Saturday night sucking down beers and talking about the Haunted Attraction industry and how to >> build the "Black Hole" for less the $100. That was the high point of the show. Wish we'd gone over to the bar at the Holiday inn after the Ruby's party - we got collared by Pickle there and weren't up to finding where everyone else had gone . . . spending that hour or so with everyone before that was the high point of the trip. >> (Please keep in mind that my writing style oftentimes employs satire and humor, so don't take it >> personally!) So there you are - pitching at your booth. Up walks a group of six folks all >> wearing matching black jackets (with red lettering) that say something like "Zeke's Apple Farm, >> Hay Ride & Scary Zone!". [snip] The not-so-affectionate term for >> these folks is "Pumpkins". Well, two of the larger wholesalers _lost_ several thousands of dollars in orders from us just because they wouldn't deal with us in our black jackets. We run a fair-sized Halloween store at Thrillvania. I was personally surprised at Ruby's - we spent over 10K with them last year and couldn't get a rep to give us the time of day this year. I guess we were just too small a client - I know many of Ruby's clients are a magnitude or two larger than us. On the other paw, Morris Costumes was happy to see us even if we weren't ordering as much as last year. Some of the booths do seem to be shooting for individual sales. Most obviously are not. One manufacturer in particular I honestly told that we didn't need wholesale quanities but we could use a few at retail if he could point us at a local dealer. He did. We did bring a photo album - and it didn't come out until the haunt get-together Saturday night. It never saw the light of day in the show booths. Most of our smaller orders - under a couple of hundred - are done by phone after the show, too. We mention that we saw them at the show, but that we didn't want to bother them with a small order while they were trying to snag the 'big ones'. We fully understand that the exhibitors are there to make money, first and foremost. A little politeness does go a long way, though. Anyway, it was still worth the trip. And the IAAPA show is still more fun if not as immediately useful. Ysengrin Werewolf (aka Silvermane) Member Verdun Manor pack http://www.webcom.com/verdun/verdun.html From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Wed Mar 26 21:17:33 1997 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:02:08 -0600 (CST) From: John Dolan To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Hey, HH Questions here. Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Fiber Optic wrote: > I am really interested in starting my own haunted house this year. Like a > public attraction, I'm 16 though. > > How do you guys go about finding a place to have it, I would like to have it > in a large old rickety house, but that doesn't allways work. > > How do you guys get funding for it. I was thinking about a temporary loan > from the bank. > > What about insurance. Codes and Regulations.. > > Please Help, I really wanna get this project off the ground.. > This could take volumes to answer and in fact there are serveral books on the subject (and more in the making). But I can offer some advice I haven't seen in any books. If your really serious about running a public haunt you should spend some time working with a community/charity house. I worked for such houses and even ran a couple before going "commercial". The experienced I gained was invaluable. There is a lot that goes into bringing a haunt together and by working with another haunt you can avoid some serious mistakes by learning from them. If you can find a haunt to work with try to volunteer for different position every night. Learn what its like to be an actor for hours on end, learn what its like to work behind the scenes working lights,props etc. and most importantly (if the haunt will let you) learn what its like to be a manager.Being an operator is alot like crisis control.Many things will go wrong and you'll be constantly presented with new problems. I've seen several people who were great at making props,sets,etc. that failed at running a haunt because they could not "manage". You could also offer to do one room in the house. You buy all the materials (props,lighting,sound,sets etc.) and design it the way you want. After a few years you will have enough rooms to start your own without having to borrow money. By working in a haunt you will also learn how to "scare". I'm sure that just about every "haunter" on this list has had a room design that they sunk alot of time,money and energy in on only to see it fall flat. Working in a house will give you a much better idea on what works and what doesn't. Through experience you will be able to develop more ideas that work and less that fail. JD jdolan@titan.iwu.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Wed Mar 26 21:51:23 1997 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:46:22 -0800 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Robert Subject: Scene help #1 "Bleeding Walls" Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Hey there fellow goulies, I'm looking for some suggestions on how to improve some effects. The first is our bleeding walls illusion. Here is the way that we had it... A room (aprox. 30"x30") that the victims, errr guests walked through the middle of. The room starts off dimmly lit with some flicker bulbs. It's decorated with a couple small tables, a bookcase and a frail old woman sitting in a chair in the corner. When the guests get near the center of the room a demonic voice screams a warning to the guests. As the warning is played the lights get dimmer and dimmer until strobe lights flood the room. At the same time blood starts dripping from the walls and the old lady starts to scream and shake. She then leaps form her chair at the guests while at the same time the bookcase is thrown open from behind and several creatures fly at the guest from behind. Awesome room, A real "pisser." Literally, (usually not the outcome we are looking for but it sure gets the monsters an incredible laugh) The parts I'm looking for suggestion with is with the walls. The way that we built the bleeding walls was by first building normal walls, top half wallpapered and the bottom painted to look like wood grain. then we attached plexor about a quarter inch away from the front of the walls sealing around all edges. The walls were drilled and a red liquid was pumped through running down the wall and deflecting off of some scrap plexi placed inside so the "blood" didn't just run straight down. More holes were drilled at the bottom where the liquid was brought back behind the wall. OK, the main thing that I was hoping for help with is. We need better blood. We want something that is thick enough that it will run slower down the wall than water, but will not clog pumps. Well if you can suggest better pumps that will handle thicker liquid that will work also. Anyway, all help would be appreciated. Thanks Robert rbradvica@themall.net From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Wed Mar 26 21:51:27 1997 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:46:24 -0800 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Robert Subject: Scene help #2 "Is he dead?" Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com A little shorter, I am looking for a way to add simple annimation. Kicking and/or shaking to a hanging dummy. Any suggestions? All help would be appreciated. Thanks Robert rbradvica@themall.net From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Wed Mar 26 22:35:52 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 22:36:34 -0800 From: Brer Bear To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Scene help #2 "Is he dead?" Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Robert wrote: > > A little shorter, I am looking for a way to add simple annimation. Kicking > and/or shaking to a hanging dummy. Any suggestions? > > All help would be appreciated. > > Thanks > Robert > rbradvica@themall.net Have you considered something along the lines of a shorter crank version of the Flying Crank Ghost that had a bit faster RPM and was attached to say one or two places? -- X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X Rest in Peace. The Death Lord http://www.silcom.com/~crafters/playgate.htm X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Wed Mar 26 23:26:01 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 02:23:48 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Hey, HH Questions here. Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com In a message dated 97-03-27 01:24:21 EST, you write: << The biggest mistake you can make is walking in blind into business. Jerry took the time to offer you information that you didn't want to hear, not because he wants you to get discouraged and give up. And not because he wants to trick you into not enjoying success. He did this out of concern. I'll bet concern he wishes someone had shown him when he was very young. >> ---------------------- Thanks wil for backing me up. I was afraid I would come off badly, and get “toasted” for being so negative. I only wanted to help. Even NOW I wish I could find a business partner to run the biz while I do the "fun" stuff. Its so hard to convince a "business minded" person to undertake a wacky idea like a haunted house. I have even thought about moving to St. Louis and begging Larry Kirchner for a job at the "DARKNESS THEATER". The only reason I would dream of running a "professional" dark attractions is to make the funds to buy a single location I could work from every Halloween here in California. When I discovered I was a lousy performer as a magician, I thought about becoming a "first assistant" so I could DESIGN illusions which is all I am REALLY good at.... I have been talking to some possible investors for my HH and I am blowing it already. One wanted my book rights to secure the “LOAN”. (I almost agreed until I read his conditions, now its looking as if I have missed the boat this year. Unless I can land another CHARITY sponsor and just take a fee for my services instead of just taking expenses.... RAMBLING MODE OFF. jerry- From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 00:25:47 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 03:03:44 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Scene help #2 "Is he dead?" Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com In a message dated 97-03-27 01:35:33 EST, you write: << A little shorter, I am looking for a way to add simple annimation. Kicking and/or shaking to a hanging dummy. Any suggestions? All help would be appreciated. Thanks Robert rbradvica@themall.net >> ------------------------------------- I did this once with a very flexible "dummy" and a off balanced motor that "jerked" his hips. It looked better when I tied his legs and arms with rope (as if to hold him still, rope around legs, and hands tied behind his back. the 1/4 horse power electric motor had a metal weight welded to the shaft. It was speed controlled to a slow "wobble" to help the illusion and keep the thing from being too dangerous. Yours ghouly Jerry - @ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ ^v^ Esoteric Toys ^v^ (Creative, Not expensive solutions in special effects.) Web page: http://members.aol.com/Spookyfx/index.html @ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 00:28:42 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 03:21:29 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Scene help #1 "Bleeding Walls" Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com In a message dated 97-03-27 00:57:34 EST, you write: you write: OK, the main thing that I was hoping for help with is. We need better blood. We want something that is thick enough that it will run slower down the wall than water, but will not clog pumps. Well if you can suggest better pumps that will handle thicker liquid that will work also. --------------------------------------------------------------- First thing that came to my mind is to call a distributor for fast-food or medical pumps. I always try to find the “proper and professional way” first, than try to figure out how to do it cheaper. No use wasting time reinventing the wheel. However, CALMAR (a company that makes pumps for home use ) is working on an idea to pump syrup for making single serving juice at home. ( I have been doing some contract work for them. ) They ran into a crystallization problem. You might try using a poster paint and foodstarch blood recipe rather than the traditional sugar base. Yours ghouly Jerry - @ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ ^v^ Esoteric Toys ^v^ (Creative, Not expensive solutions in special effects.) Web page: http://members.aol.com/Spookyfx/index.html @ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 03:09:06 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 05:04:40 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Ysengrin Werewolf Subject: Re: Back from the Trade Show Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Faugh. Ignore spelling errors galore in my last post, and anything implied. I was both dead tired and sick. ( I do mascot work, so I'm like a kid in a candy shop at the IAAPA show). About the Black Hole: I have a couple of calls out about large diameter PVC drainage pipes - I'll post general prices, weights, and contacts when I get 'em. Ysengrin Werewolf (aka Silvermane) Member Verdun Manor pack http://www.webcom.com/verdun/verdun.html From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 03:56:21 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 05:51:57 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Organization Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 11:07 PM 3/26/97 -0500, Oliver wrote: >While Leonard can be fodder for miscellaneous banter, his stand on Safety >is unsurpassed, and I think he is sincere about just stopping everything, >and DOING it. Hey Oliver, It was a treat meeting you and your wife at the show. You're right about "DOING it" it'll be a lot of work and generally unappreciated at first. I wish Leonard success. >Joe Jensen with Haunted America (the internet thing) is open to assisting >the effort in whatever way he can, I have a ton of trouble with Haunted America's approach, numbers and tactics... as anyone within 20 feet of me at the show knows. I'll shut my mouth with that. >and I think HA magazine can contribute >through the printed word. The wheels have begun to turn. >(A favorite interest of mine is in helping develop OUR convention.) >Not a trade show. A convention. A place to convene. >Sure, we can trade! And share, play, tour haunts, have 'lectures', >auctions, etc. (Secret handshakes, make smores. . .) >Wouldn't that solve alot of Transworld pumpkin problems! >IMHO, I am excited. >If anyone feels threatened, or whatever-please don't kill the messenger! >I come in pieces. :) Excellent idea. Let me know if there is anything I can do as your ideas gel. Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 03:57:17 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 05:51:55 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Back from the Trade Show Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 04:43 PM 3/26/97 -0800, you wrote: >Denny, > >I couldn't agree with you more about wholesalers who sell to anyone >walking through the door. Also, the people who run the Trade Show >really encourage the Pumpkins. They have an all day HA seminar, and >this year, created the "Dark Zone" exclusively for HA's. Weird. Yeh, they can't take operator's $255.00 on Thursday, pat 'em on the head and send 'em home on Friday. These folks certainly deserve free access to the show. ... and many of the products like The Black Hole shown can only be sold direct to the end user. It's a tough call that I doubt anyone wants to make. >Where is it going to go? Geez, I don't know. I'm both a Pumpkin and a >wholesaler. I'm confused. All I would suggest is that the the HA >industry get together and approach the issue with focus and clarity. It seems like a good start that Leonard Pickel is starting a HA association, he certainly knows the business. I personally would have liked to see someone like Phil Morris take the post for a couple of years but the job is going to be a full time endeavor and Phil wouldn't have the time. > I guess that means we need to start acting like professionals >and ORGANIZE. (I can't believe I said that). See above... or do you mean a Halloween militia group? ;) Time to check out ...jes' kidding >This forum (Halloween-L) >is a good place to start the seed of communication and ideas Absolutely! and it's free to interested people. No other organizing groups can say that. Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 05:58:36 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:37:05 -0500 (EST) From: Lund To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Scene help #2 "Is he dead?" Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, Robert wrote: > A little shorter, I am looking for a way to add simple annimation. Kicking > and/or shaking to a hanging dummy. Any suggestions? Try an electric back massager, the kind that fits over your hand and vibrates. I am going to put 1 in my hangman this year and control it with a remote. Larry From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 07:33:57 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:24:42 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: hauntedattr@pelican.net (Oliver Holler) Subject: Re:magazine Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Hey Zach, Thanks for your interest. The Spring issue will be in the mail to you shortly! I hope you like it-(We work really hard on it!) Grim and Grinning, Oliver Holler Managing Editor, Haunted Attraction magazine hauntedattr@pelican.net http://www.pelican.net/hauntedmagazine From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 07:33:57 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:24:28 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: hauntedattr@pelican.net (Oliver Holler) Subject: Re: attachment and magazine -Reply Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Hey Robyn, Thanks for your interest. The Spring issue will be in the mail to you shortly! I hope you like it-(We work really hard on it!) >Interactive editor, Star Tribune Online? I'll bet you have some wonderful insight to help improve our efforts! Constructive criticism is always eagerly sought after! (Especially from qualified pros!) Grim and Grinning, Oliver Holler Managing Editor, Haunted Attraction magazine hauntedattr@pelican.net http://www.pelican.net/hauntedmagazine From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 07:39:17 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:34:01 +0000 From: Cliff Martin To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Back from the Trade Show Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Im confused, but I'll still throw in my 2c. Sure, I go to the show to see what's new. I also buy for my (very) small retail store that's only open during as a part of my haunt - and - if there is a great deal, I'll pick up some props, too. If I had to buy for my store at retail, I may as well not try to offer anything other than sodas and candy. Does this mean I should'nt have access to wholesale prices even if I meet EVERY requirement of the vendors I deal with - INCLUDING minimums? FYI, Transworld printed in ALL of their literature that you needed to include a copy of your retail tax certificate to register, but (since I had late plans), when I registered at the show, THEY ONLY ASKED FOR A BUSINESS CARD!!!!! I also read a message from Passic (the Transworld Halloween show manager) at hauntedamerica's site that said you only needed a business card and photo ID to get into the show - for the express purpose to encourage haunted attraction owner/operators to attend!!!! Also, a couple of vendors I've worked with called to tell me that a retail license was not required - because not all haunts do retail sales! BTW - NO ONE, INCLUDING vendors ever asked for my retail tax number! - so if this is a wholesale-only show, why don't the vendors ask for a retail tax number? Some vendors have requirements I just cannot meet - so I do not take up their time. To do so would be unfair and somewhat rude, and just not good business practice for either of us. But it is very difficult to encourage appropriate ethics with 'customers'. My first question to any vendor I approach is "What are you minimums?", "What are you terms?", and "What is your delivery schedule?". If I can't agree to any one of the answers, I thank them - then I move on. If the product is really a must have, I ask for a dealer/distributer that I can contact to purchase elsewhere. Some vendors are more than happy to help me. A few made the time to offer suggestions to help me use the (few) items I purchased (after the order was written!). It seems the Transworld organization AND the exhibitors want haunted attraction owner/operators to attend AND place orders! Transworld even offers a seminar for new 'buyers'. I guess the frustration of dealing with the 'newbies' comes with the turf... Cliff (pumpkinhead) cliff.martin@saralee.net From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 07:54:13 1997 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Jim Kadel Subject: Re: Scene help #2 "Is he dead?" Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:43:27 -0700 Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Robert, In using Jerry's idea of an "eccentric weight" attached to a 1/4 HP motor: last year, I used an electric drill with a "U" bolt, bent in a vise to a right angle. One end of the this bolt held large washers between nuts which was the eccentric weight. The other end fit into the drill chuck; the drill's finger trigger was held at full speed with tape. Controlling the motor's speed is accomplished, exterior to the dummy, with a lamp dimmer. Various things of concern when using the above are: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- 1) eccentric arm length - clearance distance needed inside the dummy's chest (if that's where the drill is to be mounted). I used about a three inch eccentric arm. 2) how to securely attach a hand drill to the inside of a dummy - in order to vibrate the dummy, the eccentric/drill must be firmly attached to the dummy's frame. I attached the drill to a wood board, leaving the bit with eccentric in it extend over the edge of this board. I then built a dummy chest of "hardware cloth" and screwed the wood board to the "hardware cloth" in a position so that the eccentric could turn freely (without striking chest wall). 3) although you can test the "vibration look" at any point in construction of the dummy, only when the dummy is complete, can the actual drill speed be set to perfect the final look of the gyration. It is a fairly slow speed but can't be set so slow as to not start itself, when power is applied (a slow speed end - limit). 4) WARNING: if built as described, always have the lamp dimmer connected to the power cord (or its extension) on the drill. This so that NO ONE can ever, by mistake, plug the drill alone into a (full voltage) socket by itself - thus either tearing the dummy apart (probable) or worse, hurting someone standing nearby. ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Jim Kadel (jimk@rica.net) Haunt Master Products, Inc ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Prior Msg. Ref: ---------------------- ><< A little shorter, I am looking for a way to add simple annimation. Kicking > and/or shaking to a hanging dummy. Any suggestions? > Robert >------------------------------------- >I did this once with a very flexible "dummy" and a off balanced >motor that "jerked" his hips. ...snipped.. > the 1/4 horse power electric >motor had a metal weight welded to the shaft. It was speed >controlled to a slow "wobble" to help the illusion and keep > the thing from being too dangerous. >Yours ghouly Jerry - From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 08:55:04 1997 From: sao@mit.edu To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Low-budget "Black Hole" effect Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:45:48 EST Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Spookyfx@aol.com, Wed, 26 Mar 1997 20:54:19 -0500 (EST): >If this is the effect I am thinking of, >I did the same thing with a tunnel made from cloth draped on a >chicken wire frame. I used projected pinpoints >of light to make a turning star pattern on the surface (projected from the >outside of the tunnel.) Jerry: I like the idea of this effect! For those like me without the mechanical ability (or space!) to create an actual rotating tunnel it sounds as if would create a very similar disorientation effect. Basically, a walk-though tunnel with translucent sides and moving rear-projected effects. In fact, you can take it further than simulating rotation. By setting up lights so they zoom down the sides of the tunnel as your guest walks through it, you could simulate an advancing starfield, ala Twilight Zone or 2001. Here's one way I could imagine using two mirror balls and pinspots to create a walk-though moving starfield. Two more mirror balls moving at different speeds would add to the 3-D effect. (Overhead view -- left half only) pinspot rotating mirror ball __ / \ [===]-- \__/ ----------------------------------- translucent wall Guests walk this way --> ----------------------------------- translucent wall From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 09:15:59 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 12:06:13 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: hauntedattr@pelican.net (Oliver Holler) Subject: Faux Paws Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Listers- My apologies!!! Please forgive! I replied without checking some addresses, and I know better, and I'm sorry! It's from Trade-Show Shock. (I got back and had over 300 e-mails to deal with.) Maybe two slipping by isn't too bad an average. Sincerely, Oliver hauntedattr@pelican.net http://www.pelican.net/hauntedmagazine From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 09:29:42 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:17:23 -0800 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Greg Hope Subject: Member List Update Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| |||| PLEASE READ THE ||||||||||| |||| FOLLOWING VERY ||||||||||| |||| CAREFULLY BEFORE |||||| |||| YOU SEND ANY EMAIL ||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Please do not send any replies to the Halloween-L listserv. Instead, send any replies to this email directly to me, Greg, at ghope@mailhost1.csusm.edu Now then, if you responded to the first member list survey in 1996 and wish to make changes to your entry, now is the time to contact me. If you are on the list and don't need to make any changes, no action is needed from you. If you have never received a survey for the member list, one is being sent to you at this moment and has probably already reached you. It should be self-explanatory. If, for some reason, you have never been on the member list and haven't received a survey from me, just email me to request one. I probably goofed and overlooked you. I am requesting that everyone (old members with changes, new members wishing to be listed, previous members for whom I did followup contacts) reply by Friday, April 4. It will take me some time to incorporate the changes and additions, but I don't want this to drag out like before. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||| REMEMBER, PLEASE DON'T RESPOND TO THE ||||||||| ||| HALLOWEEN-L LISTSERV REGARDING THIS |||||||||||||| ||| MEMBER LIST TOPIC. SEND EMAIL DIRECTLY |||||||||||| ||| TO GREG AT ghope@mailhost1.csusm.edu ||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Thanks, everyone, for your cooperation. Also, thanks for your patience with this long post. Greg in Vista T (760) 945-4424 F (760) 726-2804 E ghope@mailhost1.csusm.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 14:17:46 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:19:27 -0800 From: Death Lord To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Trade Show Reps Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Cliff Martin wrote: > > offers a seminar for new 'buyers'. I guess the frustration of dealing > with the 'newbies' comes with the turf... > > Cliff (pumpkinhead) > cliff.martin@saralee.net Conventions work well when you have numerous techs available to answer questions, as Kathy mentioned earlier. I have seen this in action. As a manufacturer instead of a distributor, I am to my industry of furniture, a pumkinhead, or whatever they are reffered to as in the scary world. Yet, without at least a few of us to go and see first hand what the tool does in real life, none of us are going to cough up $125 k for that CNC machine that's supposed to do the windows along with everything else. And untill a few manufacturers start using the tool, there will be no demand for the parts, maintainance or rhetoric surrounding the item. Therefore, if the tool manufacturer doesn't bring along his line men with him to the show, he is left to pitch the thing all by himself, and guess who has the most technical questions for the application of the machine? You guessed it, the one that will only buy one or two of the tools, as apposed to 10 or 100. The guy in the trenches that actually uses the thing is the least money-maker for the manufacturer at the moment, but in reality is the real money maker in the long run. Let your hired help answer the questions for the person asking about buying ten talking masks, and you help the Target rep yourself. Hope that was coherent. -- X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X Rest in Peace Death Lord http://www.silcom.com/~crafters/playgate.htm X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 14:56:19 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:59:04 -0800 From: Death Lord To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Scene help #2 "Is he dead?" Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Jim Kadel wrote: > > Robert, > > In using Jerry's idea of an "eccentric weight" attached to a 1/4 HP motor: > last year, I used an electric drill with a "U" bolt, bent in a vise to a > right angle. One end of the this bolt held large washers between nuts which > was the eccentric weight. The other end fit into the drill chuck; the This is a great idea. How does it look when in use? Was it worth all your efforts? -- X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X Rest in Peace Death Lord http://www.silcom.com/~crafters/playgate.htm X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 15:19:42 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 18:15:45 -0500 From: William Wallace <104221.2540@compuserve.com> Subject: Copy of: Welcome to halloween-l To: "INTERNET:halloween-l@net" Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Just wanted to say hello and see who was out there. I have been searching for a newsletter of people who have the fine appreciation that my wife and I do for the best holiday out there. I live in southern California and have been part of the music and motion picture industry for several years now. This of course only feeds my need for Halloween stuff. Just wanted to say hello. Erik Walters From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 16:24:53 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:27:55 -0800 From: Death Lord To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Copy of: Welcome to halloween-l Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com William Wallace wrote: > > Just wanted to say hello and see who was out there. I have been searching > for a newsletter of people who have the fine appreciation that my wife and > I do for the best holiday out there. I live in southern California and > have been part of the music and motion picture industry for several years > now. This of course only feeds my need for Halloween stuff. Just wanted > to say hello. > > Erik Walters Welcome Eric. On behalf of me, myself and I, we hope you will find your stay with us eternal. Wil -- X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X Rest in Peace Death Lord http://www.silcom.com/~crafters/playgate.htm X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 16:27:01 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 16:25:38 -0800 From: Death Lord To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Address for Talent Pool / MIRC info Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Hi all. I wanted to let everyone know that the entrance to the Talent Pool Of Blood has changed. I was informed that not all browsers have the capability of handling "refresh" html commands. That means that not all of you were able to even get to my Dungeon Page that was being used as the link page for the Talent Pool. I have now changed this to my main home page as the jump-off spot to go directly to the list. Please make a note of this new url (the same as shown under my signature below) http://www.silcom.com/~crafters/index.html A reminder that all who would like to offer their knowlege and expertise to the rest of the members of the list in order to "give back" something, please email me directly from the Talent Pool email link under "Free Listing". The list is still pretty small for a group of 200 members, so try to find time to send this info along. If you don't list we won't know how you can help with a current project! XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Also, a quick reminder to everyone, that the new "chat nite" is on; DALnet:igc.dal.net(USA) on #Halloween each Saturday from 3pm to 10pm PST. Once logged on to the correct location above, simply type; /join #Halloween ^ (note space) Note that this is case sensitive, so type it in exactly as shown, and you'll be zipped directly to the group. For all of those on the list that have never been on an internet relay chat node, I have included a direct url to the MIRC 4.72 (the very latest version) download page so you can get the program down and loaded before now and Saturday. If any of you have difficulty getting this loaded or working, email me and I'll do what I can to help. MIRC DOWNLOAD SITE: http://www.xcalibre.com/download.htm XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX I hope to see everyone there -- X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X Rest in Peace Death Lord http://www.silcom.com/~crafters/index.html X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 17:17:29 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:20:39 -0800 From: Death Lord To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Important Notice----NEW MIRC LOCATION-----3 / 27 / 97 Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IMPORTANT UPDATE; Since I went to all the work to get the url to the latest MIRC program to send to the group, I decided to download the 4.72 version for myself. In doing this I noticed that the old node we began using last weekend wasn't even pre-listed in the new program, therefore making this more difficult for MIRC newbies. THEREFORE, perhaps we should consider meeting on a channel that is already listed, making it easier for our newcomers---what do you think? If everyone thinks this is a good idea, then I have already checked out the location below. The description is; DALnet:US,KY,Lexington The IRC Server is; Mystic.DAL.net Ports are; 6667,7000 Group is; dalnet Channel is; #Halloween If this is okay with the group, why not use this location now, before everyone gets used tothe other location? Once again, this is Saturdays from 3 PM to 10 PM PST. By the way, the easiest way togo directly into the group anymore since the MIRC program sends up the "Join Channel" box upon logging on, is simply type #Halloween in the space provided and then hit "add" so each time you logg on, you can go straight in to channel. If this is no good for anyone on the list, simply post your alternate. Thanks, Wil !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X Rest in Peace Death Lord http://www.silcom.com/~crafters/playgate.htm X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 19:56:07 1997 Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:37:32 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Ysengrin Werewolf Subject: Re: Back from the Trade Show Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com >About the Black Hole: I have a couple of calls out about large diameter PVC >drainage pipes - I'll post general prices, weights, and contacts when I get 'em. Neither call panned out - the largest plastic pipe I could find has a 60" diameter. Larger pipes are metal or concrete. Ah, well. Anybody else have any leads? Ysengrin Werewolf (aka Silvermane) Member Verdun Manor pack http://www.webcom.com/verdun/verdun.html From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 22:22:23 1997 From: SkinkSim@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 01:19:49 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Back from the Trade Show (the hole) Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Like everyone else at the show, we spent a fair amount of time studying the BLACK HOLE. I think it could be recreated without one large pipe - I'm guessing that support could come from a skeleton frame made out of thick plastic tubing, with black material stretched out across the gaps. What if you created some large rings out of curved tubing (like giant hula-hoops,) and spaced them aproximately 3 feet apart with some straight PVC tubing crossbeams, and then covered the interior with the fabric and paint? I don't know how you would automate the thing, but it would probably be much more light-weight and portable than one big-mama pipe. From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 22:23:37 1997 From: SkinkSim@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 01:22:06 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Chillin' the fog Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Many people have told me that you can create low-lying fog by running fog-machine output through a ice cooler. I have two questions: 1) How you do that? 2) Is it truly effective? Particularly in comparison with those magnificent low-lying fog devices at the trade show.... From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 22:42:15 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 00:42:48 -0600 (CST) From: John Dolan To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Back from the Trade Show Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Ysengrin Werewolf wrote: > >About the Black Hole: I have a couple of calls out about large diameter PVC > >drainage pipes - I'll post general prices, weights, and contacts when I get > 'em. > > Neither call panned out - the largest plastic pipe I could find has a 60" > diameter. Larger pipes are metal or concrete. > > Ah, well. Anybody else have any leads? > I was going to post earlier that I've never seen drainage pipes of PVC over 3 ft. diameter but know from past experience that building materials vary greatly from region to region. I can check with some pipe-fitters I know (worth a shot). It could be made out of wood but I'm not sure if it would fly with the fire marshall (it would also be alot more work but much easier to store ;) I'll let you know what I find out. JD jdolan@titan.iwu.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 23:33:22 1997 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Jim Kadel Subject: Re: Scene help #2 "Is he dead?" Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 00:29:47 -0700 Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com I was pleased with the results. As I constructed the dummy around the encased drill, had many private laughs just tinkering with the setup and viewing the many odd forms of "gyrations" possible. The dummy must be well constructed or it will shake itself to pieces. The one thing that bothered me was the sound. As you know a drill makes a very distinctive one, and I was concerned that it might ruin the effect. However it actually helps draw attention to the dummy which is toward the ceiling, and even though there's a strobe on it, small kids might pass without seeing it at the scariest moment without the sound. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Jim Kadel (jimk@rica.net) Haunt Master Products, Inc Haunt Master@Bigfoot.com ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| At 02:59 PM 3/27/97 -0800, you wrote: >Jim Kadel wrote: >> >> Robert, >> >> In using Jerry's idea of an "eccentric weight" attached to a 1/4 HP motor: >> last year, I used an electric drill with a "U" bolt, bent in a vise to a >> right angle. One end of the this bolt held large washers between nuts which >> was the eccentric weight. The other end fit into the drill chuck; the > >This is a great idea. How does it look when in use? Was it worth all >your efforts? > > >-- >X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X > Rest in Peace > > Death Lord >http://www.silcom.com/~crafters/playgate.htm >X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 04:17:13 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 06:09:43 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Chillin' the fog Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 01:22 AM 3/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >Many people have told me that you can create low-lying fog by running >fog-machine output through a ice cooler. I have two questions: > >1) How you do that? > >2) Is it truly effective? Particularly in comparison with those magnificent >low-lying fog devices at the trade show.... > There should be a few posts from me in the archives that explain the process from about a year and a half ago. Basically, you run the output of your fogger through a Styrofoam ice chest filled with regular ice by cutting holes in either end. How elaborate you want to get adding trays for the ice, water drains or booster fans is up to you. It works best if you use a quick dissipating fog fluid like LSX. Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 05:27:49 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 05:22:39 -0800 From: Spook To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Chillin' the fog Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Good Mourning, Yes and no. It depends on the brand of fog fluid. You can run Roscoe fog over one ice cube and it will stick to the ground. The stuff I use doesn't do well. How is it done? Get an old ice chest (or one of those cheapy styrofoam jobs - that way you can trash it and not have to store it). Cut a hole at each end. Fill it with ice. Stick your machine nozzle in one end. Turn it on. Simple. It doesn't work anywhere near as well as a big chiller, but it will do the job. Also, the warmer and breezier the room the less effective it is. Mark From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 05:47:05 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 07:41:01 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Black Hole revisited Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com With all due respect, I think people are underestimating the amount of development and engineering that went into the Black Hole that was shown at the Halloween show. I'd like to add a few suggestions to the discussion. The end and center rings that support the rotating fabric tube can be rolled out of rectangular or square steel tubing by larger metal fabrication shops. The rings could also be laminated out of 3/16 to 1/4 inch marine or aircraft grade plywood around a 7 to 8 foot diameter form. Lots of clamps and epoxy glue needed! Laminated rings will need to be sealed well to prevent any moisture take-up. For people thinking about finding a "rigid" rotating tube, forget about giant plastic drain pipe and look into fiberglass storage tank manufacturing companies. Basic tubes can be sprayed or wound without the ends. Back to fabric- The rotating rings each need to be supported by a series of large cam-followers or... basically, industrial urethane roller skate wheels. Good bearings are a must because of the speeds and abuse. Each ring can be driven by a wheel/capstan drive, each drive wheel is then connected to the others by a common line shaft to the motor/gearbox. The walkway- why doesn't anyone talk about the walkway? You'll need a 20 foot long walkway capable of supporting 1000+ pounds of undistributed weight. That walkway is supported only at either end, this is nothing to gloss over. Since the height of the total Black Hole must be realistic, a truss support system under the walkway is probably out of the question unless four- 8 inch trusses could be found or built. The walkway at the show did not have a supporting truss structure above it. Steel I-beams would be our next choice. Those I-beams can also be the main structure that controls alignment from end to end, critical for our line shaft and drive system. A single I-beam would do the job but as an alignment device two would be better. Anyone care to guess what happens when some kids start throwing pop cans and garbage into the rotating fabric or tries to grab an end ring? While $8,000.00 seems like a ton of money and offers to build one for much less sound great, I think people forget their time and liability is worth something. If your time is worth nothing, you can come work for me! ;) Honestly, $8,000 for a 20 foot long, ready to run, housing and rotating structure really doesn't sound that bad to me. I have no doubt that many of the innovative folks on Halloween-L can build a duplicate of the Black Hole, but wanted to throw in my 2 cents as a reality check. Andy's thoughts on moving the light and not the tunnel seem to have great merit and promise. Moving the light solves a lot of engineering and safety problems and lowers the construction costs dramatically. Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 07:28:17 1997 From: sao@mit.edu To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Black Hole revisited Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 10:25:24 EST Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com milwiron@btprod.com, Fri, 28 Mar 1997 07:41:01 -0600: >Andy's thoughts on moving the light and not the tunnel seem to have great >merit and promise. Moving the light solves a lot of engineering and safety >problems and lowers the construction costs dramatically. Thanks, Denny! But let's give credit where it's due; Jerry (spookyfx@aol.com) was the one who initially brought up the rear-projected light idea. I just elaborated on it, based on the "Speed Tunnels of Tron" effect I once saw at Disneyland as part of the PeopleMover attraction. And you bring up a VERY good point about the stresses on the walkway! The Universal Studios rotating avalanche tunnel has trams driving through it, but they divide up the tube into sections and support the track at several points in the middle. A single unsupported span would be very hard to construct! Andy Oakland sao@mit.edu http://mit.edu/sao/www/ From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 08:09:37 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 08:05:17 -0800 From: Bob Andrews To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Black Hole revisited Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com sao@mit.edu wrote: > And you bring up a VERY good point about the stresses on the walkway! > The Universal Studios rotating avalanche tunnel has trams driving through > it, but they divide up the tube into sections and support the track at > several points in the middle. A single unsupported span would be very > hard to construct! I was wondering how Universal Studio supported the tram. -- Bob Andrews bandrews@inreach.com http://www.anaserve.com/~BoBandrews From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 08:54:29 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 08:47:17 -0800 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Greg Hope Subject: Re: Black Hole revisited Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com >With all due respect, I think people are underestimating the amount of >development and engineering that went into the Black Hole that was shown at >the Halloween show. I'd like to add a few suggestions to the discussion. Thanks for the reality check, Denny. I've been following this conversation and had the same lurking question myself. I haven't seen this thing, but can visualize it easily. For those who have the courage to tackle the project: --the walkway How about prefabricated floor joists? I'm sure 20-footers are available and if they're lined up in parallel, with no spacing, they should carry the load. --the tube I've seen nurseries construct semi-circular greenhouse frames from 1/2-inch, schedule 200 PVC pipe. Like Denny says, make the tube stationary and you eliminate most of the structural limitations from the tube. Protect the ends of the tube by constructing a facade of some type. For the ambitious, build a box around the whole thing to contain stray light produced from your lighting system. --lighting Someone mentioned having lights that race down the sides of the tube to produce a shooting star/"warp speed" effect. How about a rotating mechanism similar to the ones used in lights found on cop cars (or used in a gobo)? Such a mechanism could carry halogen lights with pinhole filters. Place them at the far end of the tube (positioned to shine onto the outside of the tube surface) and they should give bright spots that race down the sides of the tube. A strobe at the far end couldn't hurt. 2 cents more... Greg T (760) 945-4424 F (760) 726-2804 E ghope@mailhost1.csusm.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 08:54:40 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 08:47:23 -0800 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Greg Hope Subject: [banter] Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Bill Lewis sends greetings to everyone. (Real) work has him temporarily occupied, but he'll be back soon. T (760) 945-4424 F (760) 726-2804 E ghope@mailhost1.csusm.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 08:59:27 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 08:47:21 -0800 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Greg Hope Subject: Passing along a comment about the listserv [banter] Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com FYI, one person who responded to the member list survey also included a wish that the listserv could be moderated. Out of fairness, I feel compelled to pass his comment along to the group at large. Personally, I feel like we're "self-moderated" in a way, in that we label banter, eject troublemakers and generally work hard to maintain a friendly, cooperative atmosphere. Anyway, one person mentioned it, so here it is. PS, I'm not associated with the listserv in any administrative capacity. I'm just another groupie who became the member list troll (visualize Igor hissing, "Greetings, what are your special interests, mahster?" Greg T (760) 945-4424 F (760) 726-2804 E ghope@mailhost1.csusm.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 08:59:38 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 10:52:52 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Black Hole revisited Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 10:25 AM 3/28/97 EST, you wrote: > >milwiron@btprod.com, Fri, 28 Mar 1997 07:41:01 -0600: >>Andy's thoughts on moving the light and not the tunnel seem to have great >>merit and promise. Moving the light solves a lot of engineering and safety >>problems and lowers the construction costs dramatically. > >Thanks, Denny! But let's give credit where it's due; Jerry (spookyfx@aol.com) >was the one who initially brought up the rear-projected light idea. Oops, you're right, sorry Jerry and Andy. Jerry brought it up and Andy elaborated on it. My memory is fine, just a little short. ;) Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 11:33:49 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 13:23:42 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Banter/Black Hole revisited Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 08:47 AM 3/28/97 -0800, you wrote: >>With all due respect, I think people are underestimating the amount of >>development and engineering that went into the Black Hole that was shown at >>the Halloween show. I'd like to add a few suggestions to the discussion. > > > >Thanks for the reality check, Denny... Thanks Greg, But just so everyone is clear, my official position is- reality stinks. :) Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 11:41:57 1997 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Jim Kadel Subject: Re: Black Hole revisited Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:33:55 -0700 Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com For a light projected "TUNNEL" there's also an idea we were throwing around some time ago. At the time, we dismissed it since throwing Laser light directly at people would be dangerous from the standpoint of possible eye damage. However what about with a TRANSLUCENT (not transparent) fabric covered "tunnel" which has a rapidly moving Laser beam thrown on the outside, with people on the inside? If the eye must view Laser light through the fabric, like a sheet, AND this the light beam is in constant motion, isn't this a pretty "safe" use? [I know we'd require an expert's opinion here, but thought I'd throw out this idea: Use an inexpensive Pen Laser pointer with that very cheap mirror & toy motor combinations ($5.) sold by "Herbach & Rademan" 800-848-8001 to form patterns on a white or otherwise translucent cloth material covering the "tunnel". ======================================================= At 10:25 AM 3/28/97 EST, you wrote: > >milwiron@btprod.com, Fri, 28 Mar 1997 07:41:01 -0600: >>Andy's thoughts on moving the light and not the tunnel seem to have great >>merit and promise. Moving the light solves a lot of engineering and safety >>problems and lowers the construction costs dramatically. > >Thanks, Denny! But let's give credit where it's due; Jerry (spookyfx@aol.com) >was the one who initially brought up the rear-projected light idea. >I just elaborated on it, based on the "Speed Tunnels of Tron" effect I once >saw at Disneyland as part of the PeopleMover attraction. ...snip... > Andy Oakland > sao@mit.edu > http://mit.edu/sao/www/ ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Jim Kadel (jimk@rica.net) Haunt Master Products, Inc. ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 12:04:22 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:29:12 -0500 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: "John P. Jeffries" Subject: Re: Black Hole revisited Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 07:41 AM 3/28/97 -0600, you wrote: >With all due respect, I think people are underestimating the amount of >development and engineering that went into the Black Hole that was shown at >the Halloween show. Denny brings up a good point along with the list members possible solutions. Another tid-bit of information is the: "Black Hole" effect ran on household voltage. I did not go into conversation with the exhibitor, but I would assume there were several safety features such as grounded motor/frame/lights, and emergency stops, motor reverse etc... Jeez, what ever happened to the good-'ol days of Disco balls and sheets? ;) John ********************************* * Mr.Scary Productions * * http://www.mrscary.com * * E-mail: mrscary@kiva.net * * 1-812-824-8935 * * FAX: 1-812-824-9960 * ********************************* From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 14:31:39 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:54:20 -0500 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: "John P. Jeffries" Subject: Re: Copy of: Welcome to halloween-l Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 06:15 PM 3/27/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Just wanted to say hello and see who was out there. I have been searching >for a newsletter of people who have the fine appreciation that my wife and >I do for the best holiday out there. I live in southern California and >have been part of the music and motion picture industry for several years >now. This of course only feeds my need for Halloween stuff. Just wanted >to say hello. > >Erik Walters > Hello Erik, You will find there are many people of all walks that contribute to the list. Feel free to visit the archives and look over some past issues, props, ideas and a bit of everything else. Every contribution is a welcome one, and there are no silly questions here. The folks here all love Halloween, decorations, parties and Haunted Houses and love new ideas. Got a new twist to an old idea? Feel free to share:) Many members have great web-pages dedicated to the ideas from the list. If I can find where I saved them, I'll post them up. Once again, welcome to the list and have fun! Hauntingly, John ********************************* * Mr.Scary Productions * * http://www.mrscary.com * * E-mail: mrscary@kiva.net * * 1-812-824-8935 * * FAX: 1-812-824-9960 * ********************************* From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 14:59:48 1997 From: BUSH134@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:57:14 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: new Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Hello. My name is Michael and I am new on this list. I am not exactly sure if I am doing this right, but I just clicked on send to all. I hope to get great ideas from this list. See you guys later. From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 15:50:15 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:37:44 -0800 From: Bob Andrews To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: new Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com BUSH134@aol.com wrote: > > Hello. My name is Michael and I am new on this list. I am not exactly sure > if I am doing this right, but I just clicked on send to all. I hope to get > great ideas from this list. See you guys later. Hi Michael! Welcome to the Halloween list! -- Bob Andrews bandrews@inreach.com http://www.anaserve.com/~BoBandrews From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 17:58:39 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:53:07 -0800 From: Death Lord To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: new Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com BUSH134@aol.com wrote: > > Hello. My name is Michael and I am new on this list. I am not exactly sure > if I am doing this right, but I just clicked on send to all. I hope to get > great ideas from this list. See you guys later. Welcome. May your stay be eternal. -- X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X Rest in Peace Death Lord http://www.silcom.com/~crafters/playgate.htm X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 18:05:25 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 18:07:50 -0800 From: Death Lord To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: MIRC LOCATION Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com In case anyone missed this message, there is a new MIRC location being suggested. So far I haven't heard anything to oppose the change to the new location, and the time is drawing nigh to meet. So I will rerun this new location and ask that if anyone doesn't want to meet here from now on for any reason, please e me at your earliest convenience. (from yesterday, March 27th) IMPORTANT UPDATE; Since I went to all the work to get the url to the latest MIRC program to send to the group, I decided to download the 4.72 version for myself. In doing this I noticed that the old node we began using last weekend wasn't even pre-listed in the new program, therefore making this more difficult for MIRC newbies. THEREFORE, perhaps we should consider meeting on a channel that is already listed, making it easier for our newcomers---what do you think? If everyone thinks this is a good idea, then I have already checked out the location below. The description is; DALnet:US,KY,Lexington The IRC Server is; Mystic.DAL.net Ports are; 6667,7000 Group is; dalnet Channel is; #Halloween If this is okay with the group, why not use this location now, before everyone gets used tothe other location? Once again, this is Saturdays from 3 PM to 10 PM PST. By the way, the easiest way togo directly into the group anymore since the MIRC program sends up the "Join Channel" box upon logging on, is simply type #Halloween in the space provided and then hit "add" so each time you logg on, you can go straight in to channel. If this is no good for anyone on the list, simply post your alternate. Thanks, Wil !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X Rest in Peace Death Lord http://www.silcom.com/~crafters/index.html X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X+X From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 18:53:42 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:51:23 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Scene help #2 "Is he dead?" Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com In a message dated 97-03-27 10:54:20 EST, you write: << e. One end of the this bolt held large washers between nuts which was the eccentric weight. The other end fit into the drill chuck; the drill's finger trigger was held at full speed with tape. Controlling the motor's speed is accomplished, exterior to the dummy, with a lamp dimmer. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------- I use electric fan speed control switches for AC motor control. The lamp dimmers are not made to handle motor control applications as you described. Am I wrong, please let me know because a lamp dimmer is 1/10 the price of a fan control. and if it is NOT a FIRE hazzard I will use the dimmers instead! jerry- From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 19:00:05 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:57:32 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Low-budget "Black Hole" effect Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com In a message dated 97-03-27 12:21:49 EST, you write: << Jerry: I like the idea of this effect! For those like me without the mechanical ability (or space!) to create an actual rotating tunnel it sounds as if would create a very similar disorientation effect. Basically, a walk-though tunnel with translucent sides and moving rear-projected effects. In fact, you can take it further than simulating rotation. By setting up lights so they zoom down the sides of the tunnel as your guest walks through it, you could simulate an advancing starfield, ala Twilight Zone or 2001. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- NICE idea about the TWO projection sources to make a 3d improvment. I never thought of that. I have used various patterns of motion and I would need to set up the projections on at least two sides of the tunnel, but the idea of FOUR, TWO on each side is great. jerry From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 19:16:13 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:10:27 -0800 From: Spook To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Haunted Attraction Association Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Okay, I'll float it out there and see what the rest of you think... I have never met Mr. Pickle, so I will only say that I appreciate his efforts. As a long-time Corporate Toady, I have an instant distrust of anyone who volunteers to be in charge. I'm willing to suspend that distrust if it will help assure the long-term survival of the industry that I've grown to love over the past twelve years. Share my vision... A Haunted Attraction Association (HAA) that provides a "Seal of Approval" for member Haunted Attractions. What does the Seal mean? It means that you meet specified requirements that the membership of the HAA has defined concerning fire protection, safety, ethics, etc.... And also - they've paid their dues. And what would the "Approved" Haunted Attraction get? Extremely lowered insurance rates. A HAA Buyer who can carry clout with wholesalers. Someone who can buy large props to be rented to member HA's. A fire code developed exclusively for HA's. A voice in the industry. An insider's jump on "deals" in the industry. Mass buying of standard props at less-than-wholesale. Small business loans? Someone who can represent the entire industry to the media. Its a start, okay? Your comments are more than welcome. Mark (A Pumpkin) From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 19:40:49 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 22:36:05 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Chillin' the fog Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com In a message dated 97-03-28 08:24:53 EST, you write: << Yes and no. It depends on the brand of fog fluid. You can run Roscoe fog over one ice cube and it will stick to the ground. The stuff I use doesn't do well. How is it done? Get an old ice chest (or one of those cheapy styrofoam jobs - that way you can trash it and not have to store it). Cut a hole at each end. Fill it with ice. Stick your machine nozzle in one end. Turn it on. Simple. It doesn't work anywhere near as well as a big chiller, but it will do the job. Also, the warmer and breezier the room the less effective it is. Mark >>----------------------------------------------------------- Has the idea of using DRYICE been said yet? A $10 bag of dry ice will be MUCH better for this and be less of a electrical hazard. I used this for the local production of the tempest in the storm scene. It was great. The low hanging fog drifted and then rose like the crest of waves in a storm! (man I loved doing that play! I got some positive reviews for the special effects in the LA times. The reviewer did not like the play as a production though :~<) just wanted to toss that in.... Yours ghouly Jerry - @ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ ^v^ Esoteric Toys ^v^ (Creative, Not expensive solutions in special effects.) Web page: http://members.aol.com/Spookyfx/index.html @ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 21:15:33 1997 From: htraver@dreamsys.com Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 21:05:36 -0700 Subject: Haunted Attraction Association To: halloween-l@netcom.com Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Mark, your plans do sound pretty good. Remember that for the fire codes, many places all have different fire codes. A development of standardized construction and safety codes would work out nicely, since we have more knowledge than many years back. I would prefer to see an elected board of more than merely the celebrity haunt owners. The biggest voices in the industry have the largest haunts, though not necessarily the best. The small time haunter must be represented to, and not create a schism between the giant haunters and the small parking lot haunters.... Harry "soon to haunt in a parking lot near you" Traver /sa [ Sent From: Dreamscape Systems - dreamsys.com ] [ Location: Van Nuys, CA - (818) 781-7529 ] From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 21:23:53 1997 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 00:18:12 -0500 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Jason Christman Subject: Re: Black Hole revisited Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 12:33 PM 3/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >If the eye must view Laser light through the fabric, like a sheet, AND this >the light beam is in constant motion, isn't this a pretty "safe" use? [I >know we'd require an expert's opinion here, but thought I'd throw out this >idea: Use an inexpensive Pen Laser pointer with that very cheap mirror & >toy motor combinations ($5.) sold by "Herbach & Rademan" 800-848-8001 to >form patterns on a white or otherwise translucent cloth material covering >the "tunnel". Have any of you ever gotten good results from using laser pointers for certain effects? I was looking into using lasers in one of the rooms for my haunt this year, but the prices were rather steep, not to mention the safety concerns. But if I could use laser pointers, which I would think would be pretty safe if not pointed at people, and get good results, that would be great. So, any of you ever used them? Jason --JASON CHRISTMAN-- ************************************* * E-MAIL: jasonch@jersey.net * * HOMEPAGE: www.jersey.net/~jasonch * ************************************* Drive defensively -- buy a tank. From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 22:22:17 1997 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 01:45:59 -0500 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: "John P. Jeffries" Subject: Re: Chillin' the fog Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com Spookyfx wrote: >Has the idea of using DRYICE been said yet? > >A $10 bag of dry ice will be MUCH better for this and be less >of a electrical hazard. I used this for the local production of the >tempest in the storm scene. It was great. The low hanging fog >drifted and then rose like the crest of waves in a storm! It's been discussed in some previous posts, and true dry ice delivers the optimum effect...Couple of problems that happen. Here dry ice is "somewhat" available, $10.00 gets you almost a pound (usually less) that lasts about 45 min for us. As I talk to people from all over, dry ice becomes scarce, or very expensive.. Then you have storage of the stuff. So, depending on where you live, it could be a good idea. We have made our own dry ice in the past, but it's still expensive in the long run. ...Meantime, behind the facade of that innocent looking bookstore: Small foggers are available on the market for as little as $145.00-175.00 and regular ice is cheap, and cheaper yet is the cooler:) Or you can make your own to last longer and have fun...If not, please send check or money order to...opps, wrong speel :) I'm waiting for someone here on the list to yank out the window air conditioner unit and build their own chiller...Hey, hang on a sec, where did that hole in the wall come from?! :) Hauntingly, John ********************************* * Mr.Scary Productions * * http://www.mrscary.com * * E-mail: mrscary@kiva.net * * 1-812-824-8935 * * FAX: 1-812-824-9960 * ********************************* From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 22:33:19 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 01:29:27 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Black Hole revisited Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com In a message dated 97-03-29 00:24:26 EST, you write: << Have any of you ever gotten good results from using laser pointers for certain effects? I was looking into using lasers in one of the rooms for my haunt this year, but the prices were rather steep, not to mention the safety concerns. But if I could use laser pointers, which I would think would be pretty safe if not pointed at people, and get good results, that would be great. So, any of you ever used them? Jason --------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Jason You really don’t need to speed the big money on lasers to get many of the effects that lasers are normally used for. I own several low and high powered (medical class) lasers and have found that a powerful slide projector (500 watts or more) with a slid made from "tin" flashing with a pin hole (not the entire pin, just the very tip!) will produce ALL the effects I have used my lasers for..... Yours ghouly Jerry - @ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ ^v^ Esoteric Toys ^v^ (Creative, Not expensive solutions in special effects.) Web page: http://members.aol.com/Spookyfx/index.html @ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ --'---,--',---@ From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 22:57:10 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 01:53:48 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Haunted Attraction Association Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com In a message dated 97-03-28 22:53:02 EST, you write: ...............large props to be rented to member HA's. A fire code developed exclusively for HA's. A voice ............. ...Its a start, okay? Your comments are more than welcome. Mark (A Pumpkin) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- There already is a set of codes for HH. They are classified as "amusement buildings" and have many codes that no one ( well maybe Disney ) could COMPLETELY adhere to. Of coarse this is true with most of the CODES (not laws by the way). Most sites for ANY business have violations. But, the inspectors are given the power to overlook these if thay see fit.... VERY UNFAIR system that makes for much ASS KISSING. (OOPS, my roommate who is a regulatory compliance specialist just read over my shoulder and is now ranting at me about THEIR side of the system....got to go...) jerry- From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 23:02:00 1997 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 01:00:53 -0600 (CST) From: John Dolan To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Black Hole revisited Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 milwiron@btprod.com wrote: > With all due respect, I think people are underestimating the amount of > development and engineering that went into the Black Hole that was shown at > the Halloween show. I'd like to add a few suggestions to the discussion. Denny, I think that some of the misconceptions regarding some of the ideas posted,stems from some conversations that took place at the trade show and were continued here on the list.This probably wasn't fair to the rest of the list and maybe it should have either taken place off list or the prev- ious conversations should have been included. Either way it was an in- ocent oversight I believe. All of those at the show agree that the display was an impressive piece of engineering and any attempt to replicate was no simple affair. I just didn't want anybody to think we are complete morons (I'm personally only half moron-from my father's side ;-) > (snip) Your ideas that followed pretty much sums up the same principles that we came up with (collectively however-proving once again you are a mad genius!). A few more thoughts I might add: In the "rigid" tube option we felt a "U shaped bed" of rollers may offer less resistance and comp- ensate for the added weight. A set of rollers would also be needed on the ends to keep the tube from wandering off the bed. As far as the walkway goes, we pretty much came to the conclusion that the 2 I-beams was the way to go.This would not only provide the needed support but the shear weight would also make it more stable since the patrons always tended to lean to one side as they walked across. This is also how the manufacturer makes their walkway btw. > Anyone care to guess what happens when some kids start throwing pop cans and > garbage into the rotating fabric or tries to grab an end ring? This is the responsibility of the operator who, I would hope, have a "spotter" at the entrance of the room. > > While $8,000.00 seems like a ton of money and offers to build one for much > less sound great, I think people forget their time and liability is worth > something. If your time is worth nothing, you can come work for me! ;) > Honestly, $8,000 for a 20 foot long, ready to run, housing and rotating > structure really doesn't sound that bad to me. Agreed. I have a feeling that if we really put pencil to paper, in esti- mating time and materials, an "alternate" version may not prove to be all that cost-effective.But in defense, I know I don't really take into account my time because I consider this my hobby. I think if I ever did a cost evaluation of the amount of time I spent working on my haunt vs. pay (remember I lost money last year) I'd slip into an irreversible dep- ression ;(. I don't really think that I will attempt a "black hole" this year but I still like to explore some options for future "projects". > > I have no doubt that many of the innovative folks on Halloween-L can build a > duplicate of the Black Hole, but wanted to throw in my 2 cents as a reality > check. > Andy's thoughts on moving the light and not the tunnel seem to have great > merit and promise. Moving the light solves a lot of engineering and safety > problems and lowers the construction costs dramatically. Again I agree. A simulated light version would definetly be cheaper, easier,and safer but I can see some potential drawbacks. I think what made the show's version so effective was the fact that it was dark, the movement was constant,and that there were nothing for the eye to focus on (the manufacturer did a great job of concealing the blacklight source). Any attempt to simulate the moving light from the interior (with a mirrored ball for example) might ruin the effect since I think your eyes would be immediately drawn to the light source and not the surroundings. External lighting may work, but I think you would need at least 3 sources to simulate a circulating star-field. One on each side,and one on top all turning in the same direction. But again this could prove to be a problem in that you would be flooding the scene with light and you would be at least exposing the frame work of your "tunnel" (through shadow silhouettes).This is definitely an idea worth exploring though. just another 2c's (btw- who's collecting all this loose change everyone is pitching in- I bet its a pretty sizable chunk by now! ;) JD jdolan@titan.iwu.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 23:02:33 1997 From: Spookyfx@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 01:59:27 -0500 (EST) To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Chillin' the fog Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com In a message dated 97-03-29 01:22:26 EST, you write: << It's been discussed in some previous posts, and true dry ice delivers the optimum effect...Couple of problems that happen. Here dry ice is "somewhat" available, $10.00 gets you almost a pound (usually less) that lasts about 45 min for us. As I talk to people from all over, dry ice becomes scarce, or very expensive.. Then you have storage of the stuff. So, depending on where you live, it could be a good idea. We have made our own dry ice in the past, but it's still expensive in the long run. >> ------------------------------------------------------- You misunderstood, I did not use dry Ice to make fog, I used it in a CHILLIER to cool fog instead of using normal ice, It lasted for hours! (I used a radiator system of metal tubing inside of the home made chillier!) jerry From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Fri Mar 28 23:42:23 1997 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 01:41:20 -0600 (CST) From: John Dolan To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Chillin' the fog Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com On Sat, 29 Mar 1997, John P. Jeffries wrote: >(snip) > I'm waiting for someone here on the list to yank out the window air > conditioner unit and build their own chiller...Hey, hang on a sec, where did > that hole in the wall come from?! :) > I'm trying. My brother is an HVAC tech and I've been trying to convince him for months that this would be a "fun" project for him to tackle. Here by the way is my experience with the illustrious LSX low fog converter. First we couldn't find a place locally that carried one so we ended up driving 2 hours, to and from, Chicago to get it. We also got an old version, which weighed a ton, and had to drag it three flights of stairs to the auditorium. Next we had to wire a 220V line 40 feet from the source. When we finally had the thing set up, the fog would only stay near the ground for about 4 feet before rising. Wrong fog fluid right? Well we switched to the more expensive LSX juice and now we were able to get about an 8 foot section of the 20x20 room filled with fog. We tried distributing it with fans large and small but all it did was thin the fog to the point that it was hardly noticeable. What size fogg- er you ask? A VEI 930. Maybe the newer versions are alot better (if there is someone else that has used one I'd like to know) but we blew more money on this than I care to remember. JD jdolan@titan.iwu.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Mar 29 00:06:01 1997 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 03:30:29 -0500 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: "John P. Jeffries" Subject: Re: Chillin' the fog Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 01:59 AM 3/29/97 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-03-29 01:22:26 EST, you write: > ><< It's been discussed in some previous posts, and true dry ice delivers the > optimum effect.. Blah, blah blah (snip) >You misunderstood, I did not use dry Ice to make >fog, I used it in a CHILLIER to cool fog instead of using >normal ice, It lasted for hours! (I used a radiator system of metal >tubing inside of the home made chillier!) Ah, ok. Still expensive stuff though. Chillers are a good project just the same...Kinda cool (no pun) to watch the thing do it's magic. John ********************************* * Mr.Scary Productions * * http://www.mrscary.com * * E-mail: mrscary@kiva.net * * 1-812-824-8935 * * FAX: 1-812-824-9960 * ********************************* From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Mar 29 01:05:23 1997 Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 03:03:59 -0600 (CST) From: John Dolan To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Haunted Attraction Association Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Spook wrote: > Okay, I'll float it out there and see what the rest of you think... > > I have never met Mr. Pickle, so I will only say that I appreciate his > efforts. As a long-time Corporate Toady, I have an instant distrust of > anyone who volunteers to be in charge. I'm willing to suspend that > distrust if it will help assure the long-term survival of the industry > that I've grown to love over the past twelve years. I personally don't know Leonard from Adam but I did attend a seminar of his last year,and as Oliver pointed out,when it comes to safety the guy know his stuff.However when one of the "big boys" steps down for the good of the "industry" I have to admit there is a small part of my brain called "skepticism" that begins to go into overdrive. > > Share my vision... > > A Haunted Attraction Association (HAA) that provides a "Seal of > Approval" for member Haunted Attractions. What does the Seal mean? It > means that you meet specified requirements that the membership of the > HAA has defined concerning fire protection, safety, ethics, etc.... And > also - they've paid their dues. > O.K. first problem, who is going to verify that the "requirements" have been met? Are the dues going to cover the salaries of enforcement troopers to travel all over the country during a one month period? Or are we go- ing to trust an honor system whereby every haunt "by signing below the written policies the parties agree to conform.....blah...blah..? > And what would the "Approved" Haunted Attraction get? > > Extremely lowered insurance rates. > A HAA Buyer who can carry clout with wholesalers. > Someone who can buy large props to be rented to member HA's. > A fire code developed exclusively for HA's. > A voice in the industry. > An insider's jump on "deals" in the industry. > Mass buying of standard props at less-than-wholesale. > Small business loans? > Someone who can represent the entire industry to the media. > When I first heard about this proposed organization that seemed to be buzzing around the trade show my first question was, Why? Maybe it's because I live in the cornfields and am "out of the loop" but I didn't realize that the "industry" had so many "problems" (anybody want to clue me in to what these are). However if this "organization" is truely committed to all haunts large and small (even non-profit charity organizations) and won't just cater to the big money making machines than I'm all for it. I think if we take a real hard look at what we do there are more problems facing the charity/community haunts than the commercial ones. The codes are sort of vague and ambiguous when it comes to small haunts and if this organization is committed to clarifying the regulations so that a charity haunt can continue to operate than this "organization" is something worth working for.But if the "organization" is more committed to gaining "credibility" to make it easier to raise capital so an operator can become the next "Spooky World" then we're headed in the wrong direction. I'm not trying to sound sanctimonious because I am not a charity haunt and- knock on wood- I haven't had too many problems, so the things I'm writing don't apply to me. It's just that I like any type of haunt, large and small, and I want to see them all survive. Call me an idealist. I now descend from the well used "soap-box". JD jdolan@titan.iwu.edu From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Mar 29 04:36:40 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 06:30:14 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Black Hole revisited Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 01:00 AM 3/29/97 -0600, you wrote: >On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 milwiron@btprod.com wrote: > >> With all due respect, I think people are underestimating the amount of >> development and engineering that went into the Black Hole that was shown at >> the Halloween show. I'd like to add a few suggestions to the discussion. > >Denny, I think that some of the misconceptions regarding some of the ideas >posted, stems from some conversations that took place at the trade show and >were continued here on the list. Hey JD, Absolutely But, out of the many people I overheard building the Black Hole in their heads at the show, few knew what they were dealing with. I have no doubt many of the folks on this list can build one of these units and my comments were made as course corrections not insults. If my comments seemed short or terse it was more from a dislike of typing, nothing more. > I just didn't want anybody to think we are complete >morons I've found being a moron has advantages. :) >A few more thoughts I might add: In the "rigid" tube option >we felt a "U shaped bed" of rollers may offer less resistance and comp- >ensate for the added weight. A set of rollers would also be needed on >the ends to keep the tube from wandering off the bed. Yup, I'd be tempted to look into small, pneumatic or semi-pneumatic "wheelbarrow" type wheels with ball or roller bearings (tapered roller for serious extended use) for support under a rigid tube. Solid urethane wheeled rollers with frictionless bearings for the ends. None of which is very expensive at all. >> Anyone care to guess what happens when some kids start throwing pop cans and >> garbage into the rotating fabric or tries to grab an end ring? > >This is the responsibility of the operator who, I would hope, have >a "spotter" at the entrance of the room. True, but that wouldn't have stopped me when I was 17. For the sake of safety and the unknown effects that spacial disorientation will have on some people, a spotter is a must. >Agreed. I have a feeling that if we really put pencil to paper, in esti- >mating time and materials, an "alternate" version may not prove to be >all that cost-effective. But in defense, I know I don't really take into >account my time because I consider this my hobby. It's very much an individual decision and depends on where you enjoy spending your time. Figure what your time is worth if you'd rather be doing something else for your haunt. >I think if I ever did >a cost evaluation of the amount of time I spent working on my haunt vs. >pay (remember I lost money last year) Oops JD, this is Halloween-L, I think you meant to put that on your tax return. ;) And just in case anyone from the IRS is looking in... my payment is in the mail. Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Mar 29 04:36:49 1997 From: milwiron@btprod.com Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 06:30:13 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com Subject: Re: Chillin' the fog Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 01:45 AM 3/29/97 -0500, John wrote: >I'm waiting for someone here on the list to yank out the window air >conditioner unit and build their own chiller...Hey, hang on a sec, where did >that hole in the wall come from?! :) > Or the cold section of a room dehumidifier. Denny B.T. Productions' Terror By Design Haunt Supplies & Scare Wares From owner-halloween-l@majordomo.netcom.com Sat Mar 29 05:03:22 1997 Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 20:29:43 -0600 To: halloween-l@netcom.com From: Ysengrin Werewolf Subject: Re: HAA (long!) Reply-To: halloween-l@netcom.com At 07:10 PM 3/28/97 -0800, Spook/Mark wrote: >Okay, I'll float it out there and see what the rest of you think... I think you're thinking of more haunt-as-business members than the haunt-as-entertainment people who seem to be here, but I'll comment on it. If the list wants this to be taken to E-mail, just let us know. >I have never met Mr. Pickle, so I will only say that I appreciate his >efforts. As a long-time Corporate Toady, I have an instant distrust of >anyone who volunteers to be in charge.